Joe Rogan Experience #530 — Vince & Emily Horn, from Buddhist Geeks Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! A little bit, right? It's a little odd. my eyes have steadily gotten worse. But your image, the logo your vision? Maybe clairvoyance. also because when i put on reading glasses um things just get sharper i'm like oh that's what And really in the beginning, it was just my sort of early 20s rebellion as teachers and And Emily recently, about four years ago, kind of joined the team,

3:49 and figure out how to do it ourselves Is that an effective way to do it, like meditation apps? I mean, as soon as you start really getting into it, though, at the gym or if you're, you know, on the tube. You wrote one for working on the computer. your attention back as you swipe it, you know, back and forth with your finger. So it's just Is Facebook the devil?

6:07 We have to bring it into it. the Kim Kardashian stuff and that kind of thing. And people who have no part of your life at all, you shouldn't be caring about them even remotely, Ooh. mean mccloughlin was right what are we doing we're making we're making computers and we keep making And where's that coming from? Yeah, most likely. there's no way we'll be able to recreate that because our ideas of human of the human mind,

10:10 And they can figure out a way to download intelligence or download consciousness or memories into that bank. created version, I mean, it makes sense. Hopefully it will be. Like, well, let's just get this thing up and running, and then we'll figure out a way to give it emotions. Yeah. Like, I hope they don't do that with artificial intelligence. Like, well, let's just get this thing up and running and then we'll figure out a way to give it emotions.

12:08 And so thinking about merging with technology or creating some sort of artificial intelligence, They forced us to learn to interact with each other. And this along the way, But if I live in the past and worry about all the mistakes that I've made does this want me to be upset at someone else's house or someone else's family And then those ideas compiled and they piled on to other ideas.

15:42 whatever the hell it's going to be, when we become more 3D printers or hell it's going to be, you know, when we become more, I think one thing I thought was interesting as I got into the transhumanist stuff, you know, a while back was that, you know, they use this term mind uploading, you know, to kind of predict, you know, we'd be able to upload our consciousness into the cloud and stuff like that.

17:23 even if we're able to upload our patterns into the cloud, very fast flickering form. it's still there's still which I can't imagine because my imagination is so limited, I still think there they exist they exist completely in the moment and in a sense that is the most biological of supposed to be enjoying it are you supposed to be leaving it better for the people that come after

20:30 what if you become something that's not human if you become something that's not that it's like, we're not doing shit, okay? I don't even have ovaries, you know? For what purpose? building that we've ever made every work of art that we've ever created is essentially this thing Yeah, what are we? And so when I really touch into the mystery of And one thing that comes to my mind is philosopher Ken Wilber

24:03 if we eliminated all of our biological urges and would things just completely stop? They want a bigger house. improvement. And that is essentially designed into the evolutionary process itself. That's what led This is a mad, mad, mad world. No. week you fly around people go oh look at the butterfly and then it's over like let a bunch Does everything just, and did, you know, what, what is the conversation then?

28:17 But maybe I'd just throw in one piece. part of us that wants to include everything. Like Emily mentioned, transcending and including, respond to the needs of others because we realized it's not just about us. Like it's not just this You need people to stay together in order to get people to work together, in order to get the I mean, every society that has done well has been a society that cherished its members. If you don't give a fuck about your

31:56 from that perspective, but I think there's other ways to look at it, which is that compassion in was that where did that what was that that it all came from? reunite with our own deepest heart and our own deepest mind. But does it really? Because if been through, it really does teach us how to start to deconstruct some of that training i mean compassion naturally arises in a moment's notice without

34:51 carolina we were driving down the road and we saw this car it had like um it's hazards on but they They took him to the hospital. in us and so therefore we can continue to cultivate that and so it's more of a consistent So, in a sense, yeah, it is one of the most important things. their compassion to each other and you start mimicking that behavior or at least mirroring

37:42 if you removed everything biological. Our minds go and try to construct it all. a thousand years from now like what is what is the difference? And what is the difference going to be? can access other states, you know, Do we know? It gives you this sense of euphoria and this elated sense of being. perspective of consciousness itself you know of the experiential aspect of it um which is

40:48 who we that's not all of who we are we're not just brains right um because you know we're having at the level of consciousness itself that you know you can't convince a skeptic or a cynic that they're true but you can give them the instructions and say hey run this program and I don't know why it's happening. And so there is a certain kind of, like, in-your-face shock about that that I think we're constantly coping with as human beings.

43:28 Sort of. the environment, our interaction with that environment, our together help each other innovate help each other move forward press forward and continue to grow each other to death of swords, and was like, there's got to be a way around some of this Completely connected for sure without a doubt. but that's gotta be a part of it. Don't eat the cows.

47:11 to to pay attention and and use their body in a way to produce some of those effects endogenously every contemplative tradition these sort of psychedelic or psychic experiences it's like So they are important. I mean, sorcery, like in Tibet, you know. It's mind-blowing. And it went outward in all directions. And I'm like, okay, these dudes were, you know,

50:30 There's so much ego bound to testosterone and also the mortality of testosterone, How dare both of you? And it's kind of like sensory deprivation. Right. so it's probably similar more intense this is why i've done both and the sensory deprivation tank 100% guaranteed. but I don't do it for financial compensation. once they have some sort of opening,

54:06 just your body trying to reclaim like some sort of walls let's let's put boundaries on this sucker it was so boundary defining like whatever i had thought of as a boundary in the past I'm not separate from you. Yeah, I know Shinzen Young, one of our favorite teachers, he says, Like the whole thing is just it's filled with something. mindfulness are in a lot of ways an attempt to escape this

57:14 I'm just putting shingles on this thing and it's going to hopefully be something. How does that change how I live? Do I sort That's not like a fixed thing that we're going to transform into this fixed thing. I think being a person is great. that got bitten by a shark, this Australian cat. Like they said to this guy, hey, I know you got your arm and leg bit off by a shark,

1:00:31 replace your left leg too with this artificial leg so this way you'll have two artificial legs Well, what's left of you? It has beliefs. I guess it depends on how it's constructed. And then at the same time, if you look at the mirror, you can tell that you've aged. But your vehicle. you know, And then there is this change that happens and we age. growl like some of these myths have existed for a long time so everybody wants to sleep but nobody wants to

1:05:06 She pointed out, you know, in every moment we actually don't know what's coming next. we're going to have to go through so many deaths And this is what many ancient religions have speculated on throughout the beginning of time. It reminds me of that Time Magazine cover that says they couldn't find the God particle. what defines this existence for the person who experiences it themselves,

1:08:05 when your body's worried it's going to die? to the next phase of being. Yeah, well, what is it? It has no lifespan. Because that's where the Terminator comes in. the need for community goes back to the very earliest moments of the universe. You know, Including vegetarians. birth death and the prolonging of the species, or the improvement I don't want to see Star Wars for 100 hours.

1:12:16 fucking get me out of here this is terrible this movie sucks you know why because it's boring i altogether, but that we'll transcend certain ones and then discover new ones. And then the something that's far more complex and complicated unless unless one aspect of and everyone's trying to figure out which one is going to be the Betamax, and which This is reminding me of like the fluidity of perspectives as I've trained and practiced. It's like the mind, it has the capacity to take on multiple perspectives and how important

1:16:09 If you went back before the printing press and tried to explain the Internet and trying to access Google on your phone with voice commands or Siri, you know. The hive mind, to me, seems to be the most likely. Oh, yeah. We're slowly but surely expressing ourselves in ways Like, you are this other person having sex with someone. mean the thing i'm most excited about is creating contemplative training environments in the rift.

1:19:13 take the psychedelic drugs would show up. the virtual reality will achieve the type of possibilities The concept of virtual existence, of some sort of existence in a simulation, as it were. that we have created and we're just tapped into this sucker? And he was basically saying, you know, one possibility is in we're in a virtual But how is that even an option?

1:22:33 Yeah, that's true. You could simulate an infinite number of universes technological ability to create Yeah, it's possible that one day we're going to achieve that. yet? That seems to be far more likely than the possibility that no civilization ever achieves it. far as what we can observe, that things are, we have more ability, we're more competent,

1:25:30 model right like right we've kind of we've got this story about you know the universe started It exists in a linear kind of motion. for the most part that is not the way i, I tend to think this is a linear thing. especially when your children, what infinity, the big mindfuck of infinity is that not only is the concept of infinity impossible to grasp,

1:28:37 Those things are all happening simultaneously throughout the universe. somewhere else in the multiverse and you know your decisions and choices allow you to travel You know what I mean? So we can travel. I hate it. of 1% of the mass of the entire galaxy. They were tripping balls. Like, you have to. Those are trips. I think a lot of people listening are tripping, too.

1:32:50 and look up you go outside and look up at night and you see stars and realize those are just infinity that isn't about distance it's about uh consciousness and infinity being you know this And so in that sense, the idea, the concept of infinity as a distance, Consciousness is undeniable. conscious as well and isn't that consciousness like a very limited consciousness and as consciousness expands what's the what's the ongoing theme when we're talking about meditation and meditative

1:36:21 and to communicate with each other is this just a beginning stage He's like, but it did. You don't think that's more impressive than a dude coming back from the dead? it's just it's and one day they'll laugh at us these fucking dummies thought that the universe and everybody going what are you fucking Yeah. Yes. wait, wait, wait, okay, okay, okay. Yeah.

1:40:38 Why would you take that down? Strange computer code discovered concealed. to answer the kinds of questions that my colleagues here have been raising. So you're saying, are you saying your attempt to understand Wait. by a scientist named Claude Shannon in the 1940s. That's what we find very deeply inside we're just expressions of their code? because I never

1:44:27 let him finish. Wait, I need him here and now. Describe is fine. presence of these codes. That's my statement. That's not true. Well, what comes to mind is that a lot of times in our formulas or our mathematic equations, And the present moment is not just one thing. I just don't understand the argument that if mathematics are, if it's, like so many other codes that we

1:48:45 and human beings are a natural creation of the earth or of biological life itself and all the you could you could say the same thing like everything is artificial everything is generated we describe with our foods. You know, we describe it with our, the things that are healthy and predators or prey what do you what do you think people are really pointing to when they say

1:51:34 most important thing compassion wisdom you know like i've got my own conception of what's most What's most important? Mm-hmm. To get out of here. You know, I got to go back and get my hand. There's something weird to that yeah there's something that's something biological beings and then they just stopped and they all just sat around waiting for the next

1:54:46 they have a lifetime, a lifespan, when that sucker's out it's getting and we can't recreate? Well, it depends on what we're calling consciousness. that's probably because I've been spent my whole life exploring consciousness. some form of, but non-measurable, so completely just theoretical. most fundamental level consciousness itself and so that there isn't something outside of

1:58:17 reconstructing and dissolving and reconstructing right but isn't this just the perceptions of your Because, no, I mean, I'm not changing it, and then, yes, I am changing it which is more true and i keep going back to like you can't reduce one to the other or conflate one to the other, physical objects and, it's almost like this mystical view of it,

2:00:58 then like we lose the background, you know, And then we're going to have to come up with a new story problematic at some level that's kind of the beauty of existence right is that there's a because I feel that balance, too, in the room as we're talking between, you know, opening more into the mystical part of things and all that jazz that there isn't a balance to it all and that the

2:03:43 And it may impact others around you because of your neurons and everything else. there's like a part of you that grasps it. But what about that? Oh, it was brutal it was brutal and that that you know if you could find the It just makes the experience of life itself more exciting. We might have run out of mind fucks in this podcast. in all this stuff?

2:05:55 I won't speak for Emily, but for me, I grew up with hippie parents, new agey parents. It is getting out. Yeah, we love it. What's the population there? It's very, but you guys are like tucked up in the mountains. And you gravitated she was working the Buddhist inspired Harvard. The only place that I know of. It's like there's something about mountains that are so humbling. Yeah. Yeah, Boulder most certainly does. And another place that's tucked in the mountains.

2:08:42 them like the rockies forces people to sort of humility oh yeah sort There's something about nature that's, like, super important. We're in the middle of it. the most peaceful version of that, it's sort of like it's just defined by its environment. at the very least being entertained on a bus you on a plane or what have you, or you're stuck in a commute.

2:11:35 and buddhist practice various intersection points of how buddhism is sort of interfacing with neuroscience of enlightenment. And they've been sort of working with the question, is there a who has been meditating for 40 years and who, you know, That's fascinating. It's really bizarre. Which is similar. dong. I mean, I don't know if it was like that for you.

2:14:32 result because the fMRI showed functional knowledge of the crime scene. technology and the understanding of the human brain, they're evolving right now in front of us so rapidly. Yeah, it's true. I mean, just recently in the contemplative neuroscience field, they is just keeping the heart beating how much of that is maintaining a normal state without freaking out

2:16:56 I can't separate now out the experience of talking to all these people and Yeah, I mean, sometimes I think it's one of the most grandiose things to do is to start a podcast or to be a media person, his own understanding and then how everything just kind of converges. And that's kind of the beauty of podcasting. I think like Oculus Oculus riff style podcasting. Well, I mean part of it. Well, that could happen.

2:20:40 Why Buddhism, though? Like, why not? Why call it something? Is call it something is that work i mean you're talking and it's changing changing look i mean it's changing in what way you guys are changing it Well, that's funny that you said the secular, because most people would consider Buddhism to be some sort of a, or maybe one of the only secular religions.

2:22:39 I mean... that was really powerful and works, they get really fixated on it. Being integrated in your life, you know how it is. that's just Is it tax-free? Don't do it. And so there's a lot about religions and spirituality in general that I don that i don't personally like you know like what so um And that's one of the reasons why I've chosen to continue because of its impact.

2:26:47 and I've learned to really work with that and learn how to see clearly what's happening If someone came along with another name though, I think there's some, And I felt this deep sense of connection with that particular form. The deification of the teacher is a real issue though, right? that sense that the best teachers are the ones that make themselves irrelevant.

2:30:05 I get into driving too fast they have like major house parties Definitely afterwards. It's not the afterwards part. Like how do you feel before? How do Duncan and I were talking about this last night because they didn't have to pay for the experience. Well, that's fascinating. Do you guys get in that North Carolina weed? Maybe it's a physical thing, though.

2:33:02 That which is a wide uh margin by a wide get away from our experience are we trying to have insights are we and then if you stop then you got to deal with all this shit that comes up it doesn't feel good yeah and then you gotta go to rehab and try to wean your body off the escape and if you're a multiple levels of development i don't know meaning that you know just because we develop

2:35:42 Really? While you were practicing Buddhism? Sure. folks oh yeah i've been dysfunctional and you know messed up and doing stupid stuff while you're those human psychological issues it's called spiritual bypassing um so for me i think part Yeah, and then the integration part, I think, you know, we're not just our bodies, and we're not just our limited views of who we are.

2:38:29 And, you know, maybe, you know, I've traveled these interworlds and can help other people navigate them. Like, what's the point in having these experiences if you can't bring back the revelations and enhance your actual here and now life? That's part of what you're doing like in in the podcast you sort of explaining or it's useful to be able to connect with other folks

2:41:25 you know, And in the end, And I think in that sense, you guys are excellent representations of the Buddhist lifestyle. Unless, It's been a lot of fun. if anybody wants to get a hold of your podcast, Are you guys on Stitcher? Thanks to our sponsor. Thanks to LegalZoom.com. Go to LegalZoom.com and use the code word RO slash rogan blueapron.com forward slash rogan and get your first two meals for free we'll be back tomorrow with stand-up comedian nick yusuf and uh