Joe Rogan Experience #633 — Alex Winter Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Alex Winter. Alright, we're live. Nice to meet you, man. Well, it was a couple things. One is,... first of all it's great to be on the the growth of internet-based communities. parts of like you know self-help groups or like rape counseling, any number of things. There's also people who are selling drugs. But it was more of a community it seems Yeah, I think that's true, and I think that's a very hard thing for people to understand.

4:06 We were communicating in real time. build community the Silk Road in this case you have a manifesto because you digital stuff digital creations where it's this is going to be slippery you're not going to be yeah it's impossible and it's true that it's slippery and that's why I like You know, you can say this is really bad. you know, making the drug issues criminal and not about health.

7:19 their minds, their, their visions, their goals were way beyond that. And we're still not in the future that those They're going to stick around just like, you know, file sharing didn't go anywhere. But I think the digital world that you're dealing with, with Napster or with with the Silk Road I really enjoyed talking to him, but he's got this sort of really archaic idea of stealing.

9:52 street say i love that car let me just press a button and my 3d computer or my 3d printer And I spent a really long time trying to explain to her how the deep web worked and why it was no different than the door on your bathroom. to this day people are still like i'm really feel guilty that i downloaded that album it's like that my own judgment kind of dissipated. And I found myself reconnecting to stuff that I hadn't

12:26 Yeah. But as far as the information aspect of it It's called your cell phone. But a private digital room where your physical body isn't even there, that becomes problematic. this is what you don't understand. You've already been hacked. All your information is out there. You know, someone had to come over your house to look at your photo album. Yeah.

16:15 The truth is we actually need more of that. It's a basic right-to-privacy issue. And that was one of the really disturbing things that was revealed during the whole Edward Snowden incident was that the government is not just able to tap into your stuff and check in on you. Fuck it. you know, you have a choice. implementations that occurred occurred because of the drug war yeah isn't that adorable

18:54 And it's not even a war. is, why? Why do we need them? And what purpose are they serving and making sure that they serve You're like, oh, I was going to go buy a car. Yeah. like if you write things down on paper, money. They are addicted to taking that money from people. They're addicted to the private prisons I mean, look, there's a way to do it where they would be put into a better position in society.

21:55 The record industry makes far less sense to me than the movie industry. But if you download Paul Stanley's solo album, you might want to go see him live. right. You know, I live here. I'm not going to get that. Like all my friends have seen it over has sailed. I'm a huge fan of Yeah. Technology is changing the world in all these ways. okay on the other side.

24:48 The way they fought cars was the same way they're fighting the deep web and the records and Napster. Because the invention of the car was within a decade or two of that. When you create a vacuum, it will be filled. It's just, and you look at it on paper. Yeah. Yeah, and the reverberations, I think, of just denying people freedom. And if they're exchanging drugs and, you know, they're selling, buying and selling drugs, like, well, that's a minor consequence of freedom.

28:08 lot of gray here. There's always going to be, and that's just a part of being a human being. Right. And they were the forbidden fruit right yeah it's like everything their parents were trying Now, in any city, you're going to have all kinds of good stuff going on, That's one way into the dark. or is a browser but then it goes further than that or also has a and uh...

30:50 The NSA uses it, law enforcement uses it, And is that restricted? Well, I don't a bore your your audience, but but the it's it is just like everything online that is an index it's basically like looking under the hood of as well that are growing. So the problem with that would be of course if someone email address, you're going to Yeah, we are going to get to, this is where it gets into an interesting gray area, because

34:05 that so they can hide for doing contraband. They're doing that to prevent being hacked most If they found out who you were, though, do you have a randomized number? all like on this highway and the highway has all of these lanes on it and we're all moving along It's to say, hey guys, there's a massive human revolution going on right now or an evolution or a cultural change, whatever you want to call it.

36:36 the change is so powerful and so rapid, sharing but yes you don't think they do well actually that's yeah it's being part of the process with bands. and I can still use the technology I like, Well, we don't spend $20 on a CD with one good song on it Yeah. After Some Girls. It's not just a hit that you send out that's sort of bait to get you to buy this CD that's

39:40 The artists only made their money by touring. file sharing really is And even at that amount of money, we're talking about probably no more than 25 years. I mean, I mean, I think the Game of Thrones thing has really been the question. the same time. They want it a certain way. It isn't going to change. So I think people have Wow. Yeah, that's... Like, Game of Thrones is all over the world.

42:32 The reality of it is it's always been consumers and go, it's your fault that we got knocked back. You guys are criminals and we're That's a perfect example the greatest song ever written that song Well, it's like Teletubbies. But it's a perfect example in that that didn't require any promotional vehicle other than Yeah. Yeah Mouthfucking everybody with this music. Yeah, forcing it into your ears. Yeah, they can't do that anymore No

46:05 When I was a kid, there was all these radio DJs. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. the best whatever kind of music you like and you can aggregate that or sort? Well, we're sort of concentrating on one aspect of this issue, which is sort of file sharing and the digital reality of songs and things along those lines. It was a political movement. I mean, it was a community that was put together with certain political ideals, and they weren't all the same. Some of them were libertarian,

49:03 Like law enforcement folks? Well, I mean, in order to sell drugs, you have to advertise. So it sort of went out and, you know, creating murder-for-hire entrapment schemes. allowed to talk about it. The Ross Ulbrich's defense attorney wasn't allowed to bring it up they're probably like, there's nobody that can figure out what I'm doing here. This is all

51:51 And the thing about the Internet is one friend of mine within the Silk Road said to me, he's like, the Internet never forgets. um the dea and other agencies so they're not completely telling everyone how they got caught and then that's it. was the undercover um who was sort of at the heart of that first murder-for-hire sting. No one appears to have been hurt on any level.

54:56 talking about murders for hire. But the other thing you have to keep in mind is two things. The selling of you know millions of dollars worth of drugs to millions of people that seems so shifty helping to bring the drug war to an end. But they also claim that the journal and all that stuff and the Bitcoin found on Ross's computer aren't his. This stuff was all on his laptop.

57:38 Oh, yeah. My perspective on it is I'm fine with whatever the truth turns out to be. Yeah. And that's what they did to this guy. in mechanical engineering from Penn State. Very bright. We know that he had hardcore libertarian I don't know how he could have been running an almost a billion-dollar drug empire. writes a journal on their laptop of all the shit they're going to do today. I will take over the world. That's kind of how it was.

1:00:41 Because I mean, I would side with wherever the truth lies, but, but to be in the courtroom and to hear all that and just think, And if you're reading this, don't tell anyone from law enforcement. Yeah. So they refused to even allow him say the term medical marijuana. So this guy went to jail for drug trafficking when he was a legal medical provider by the law of the

1:02:54 Yeah. They're not saying that he was involved in any of these transactions. Solitary confinement, the whole bit. piece defense was about to they got blocked it was over they got blocked yeah you can watch the So I would very much like to see the defense have its day. It'll be Robert Pattinson, you know, and he won't have shaved for a while. Yeah. So this guy sets up a fake murder for hire, then does a fake murder, has a fake body, all to punish this fake person for stealing money that he stole.

1:06:33 Yeah. counterfeit money allowed on silk road um it when silk road started it was mostly softer drugs it I mean, that's how they get in. Privacy is bad. Drugs are bad. when I was at South Byte talking to a reporter from a major newspaper who wanted to know what this I mean, as I said, I spent several hours when I was at South by talking to a reporter

1:08:36 Who is it? So look up the New York Times. Find that article, It's like, no, we're not saying that. doing things and implicating replaced with independent bloggers yeah for real man unless you you know Until you get a A Glenn Greenwald type character He who knows man In order to understand it And there's going to be some... Yeah, and they're using decentralized

1:11:03 means is there is no central server. They've done it over and over again for these copycat drug markets, but now decentralized I've talked to a bunch of dealers who are using these online services and they're very, very good at working the postal and they find your IP address and they connect that to a person unless they literally pop you Right. Yeah.

1:13:49 Like, hey, look at this. and they get very, very tangled. And it's very easy to pop somebody for almost anything. this signal doesn't exist like a signal where you like passing by someone's house and you see all or utilized, let's say, by a lot of government agencies who need TOR in order to communicate with each other. How do we find these people, even if TOR is mostly mostly being used for good purposes unless we demonize the whole thing and that's when i get my my hackles up when people just say this whole world is bad they're just

1:16:55 apply them to that law and tell me whether or not this law is just yeah I mean, it's every kind of political configuration is involved in this movement on some level or another. Yeah, regular cable. Yeah, Epic's is awesome. You need to understand, thankfully, these issues to me are not about technology. And that you can convey to somebody in 90 minutes.

1:19:02 So they would give him questions. It was chilling. They believe that he made a lot of money off of the Silk Road via Bitcoin. I know. It's not viable and because it's not viable the data just keeps getting Yeah, you're making documentaries. I'm telling jokes Chelsea Manning, the artist formerly known as They claimed that he was talking to a journalist.

1:23:07 I mean, it's like you're just locking you away and throwing the key. Tell me that won't make you nuts. I mean, that's's insane that's fucking insane Well, that at least will give some publicity to the premiere of your documentary, which is May 31st. was he ever able to speak on his behalf? What else can you be but hopeful? It got pretty depressing. I mean, there was a point

1:25:45 the other side. And, you know, at the point at which I suddenly realized that was it, the trial whatsoever to try to reform this kind of railroading of people? Yeah, I mean, to be or these things that are beginning to shift in our culture. Is that how you've been branded? much more about how bad it was to pull down Metallica. And I was just not that interested in

1:28:24 narrative from the right. You get that from the left. You get it from the center. Everyone all this money. It's like, where's the crime? Where's the crime that you're protecting the world from? his confinement oh he's not like chelsea manning in that way he's been in in a holding uh prison Fuck! Yeah, he's done, I mean, you know, He may have done horrible other things that we will learn about more in detail at some point.

1:30:36 when you make a documentary about something like this uh you go through withdrawal you know i'm I get to go, you don't get to go home. You know, I got a family and kids and like, I get to go home I want to go to Big Bear and just take a day off. Yeah. Here's where this happened. who is the director of an organization called Law Enforcement Against Prohibition.

1:33:37 Yeah. People who pay taxes go to them. It supports the economy. the whole thing is bizarre it's just it's such a weird Yeah, and that becomes just another step removed right from the normal he started talking because there was another competing sort of deep web service. And Dread Pirate Roberts knew that the Silk Road needed more exposure in order to get more customers.

1:35:49 It just disappeared. And it happens from time to time. And you set up an account. Yeah, because Bitcoin is anonymous in the sense that you can set up a Bitcoin address, to separate you from the core site. stuff on your site. You're the middleman, right? Because you're connecting buyer to seller, Exactly. that don't even have fee-based structures where that won't be possible where basically all i've

1:38:41 Or does everybody have to shut up because they were talking about illegal drugs in the first place? They were actually creating Bitcoin exchanges. They were very technologically together. So you have people like that on the Yeah. sellable. eventually create profit. So, and they're also saying that not only are people using this for Cody's in my movie,

1:41:17 Yeah, what he's done is very interesting because his plans or whatever it is for the 3D gun, you could download. And this is not stores where you have to go and pick something up, but you just print it. Yeah, you get ingredients, and you can literally make food. to Sean about 10 years ago. This is 10 years ago. I was like, okay, what's the next big thing?

1:42:51 The world is really, I mean, that's the thing I maintain They're so weird because we're in the middle of it. like this silk road thing or napster well you. You've really kind of captured with both of these documentaries, with Downloaded and with Or him whoever they are It's a little frustrating, but I, you know, I also, like I said, a lot of the people that I interview are more sensible than sometimes what the prevailing narrative is. You do encounter people that just really have their heads planted in the sand, that just don't want to think about

1:45:36 And, you know, when I tour around with the festivals and we have these great Q&As that will go down as being the first generation that grew up entirely with the internet yeah and in the end well that was the Lars Earl Rich thing well it was everybody I mean it really was really looked back and nobody else was at his back nobody like all the other artists were like yeah none of

1:48:04 Yeah, I think they Like if you're working on a new bit and someone shows up at a comedy club And the truth, though, is I think you've been saying is that it isn't to brand them. Whatever the next stage is, because I'm imagining, with very little technological expertise, of course. I hired somebody. And I'm imagining that what we're looking at now, when you're looking at a website even, when you're looking at message boards, when you're looking at Twitter, Facebook, social media, is akin to those boards that existed back in the day before there was any good before there was a web. Yeah, we're talking about 93

1:50:32 happening. If you check Twitter, anytime you know or you know even HBO go any of these things where you're seeing things It's a very exciting time, but it's also very, whew, like, Jesus. We're kind of just moving along, not considering the implications of what we're doing, but just continuing along the same path. Sony's going to come along, and they're going to just take the fucking rug out from under you,

1:52:52 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh-oh. And then it became, you could get it on worlds that have been created And they may very likely be the thing that takes major cartels down in the long run. So essentially the brain produces all of these effects, just not reliably. I mean, they're going to take you on a real live drug ride and no drugs will be involved. They're producing drugs.

1:56:34 Oh, 100 percent. And also the reason why people get addicted in the first place, just the trauma that people experience as young children that causes these receptors to open up, people to relate to that's hard for people to understand and genetics and the genetic disease that, like you said, want to bury like look i've got to take this course because what are you asking me to do? You're asking me

1:58:30 Yeah, that's the problem. Well, Alex, it'll be available everywhere. Yeah, it's Thanks for making this, too. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you. I really appreciate the conversation. I sort of send out information and cool ancillary stuff. Well, thank you so much, man. Thanks for making this too. yourself.