Joe Rogan Experience #649 — Jonathan Gottschall Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Okay. Good? Good? Good. and even more fascinated to talk to you about this. A half? Yeah. I don't know why and a half at the time. A half? Me too. And there used to be this auto parts store across the street about as far away as, you know, I could hit it with a snowball if I threw it. I've literally never been in a fight before. overall, it sounds contradictory, but it's not necessarily about violence.

3:03 it, for this violence at the heart of human nature. Then I go over there and I find that my theory isn't very good. instructor he's got named mark schrader warns us about all the time because guys get mad they get Yeah. And a couple other guys. to actually feel it to feel what's actually happening to you to feel what it's like to get I wanted to figure things out about it.

6:06 I was not new to cage fighting. it up because of the ufc yeah i went missed the boat when machida came along then all of a sudden And long story short is guys like us, they're not just losing. Yes. No, but I do now. I would have gone into it earlier, but it took a long time for MMA and BJJ to make it to my neck of the woods. It's very difficult to make money teaching MMA.

9:19 I started out in taekwondo It was just all about kicking. You're throwing a lot of kicks. that it's not martial arts, And when they did take you down, they would just break your arm. I watched them religiously at first. I think I found out. I used to hang out in that section of the video store. Faces of Death. And Faces of Death and they eventually went under.

12:41 It was a crazy environment because uh he uh blinky had some the the place was auzz about these tapes. Is this shit going to work? And I knew that Mario Sperry trained there. It was like one of the craziest fights ever. Madness. But as a white belt in jujitsu, even with a year of high school wrestling, I kind of In all your karate training? saying gloves on and fucked around maybe we did but not for real i mean the level the the intensity

16:37 Yeah. In order to prepare, to be comfortable in the cage, and to fight at your best, how much do you have to take out of your system? Yeah, yeah. It's like, fuck, you can't argue with that success. you're not allowed you put in your 20 or 30 well people in the NFL first Well, people in the NFL, first of all, that fucking whistle blows and you get a nice juicy break.

18:45 I mean, you've got to work out hard to be that fucking big and strong. Like, how did you, did you start off with beginner classes? Like, how did you in popularity as a spectator sport Yeah, pretty much, yeah. guys who weren't? And the little guys also know not to antagonize the big guys. And in the moment before the bell rings, I go right up to him and I hug him.

21:01 language, that kind of communication is going on a lot at a gym. had never faced another killer. Yeah, they call them. thing for Don't hit that guy hard. Because the guys who try to knock each other out, man, And then pull it at the very last second. away from this guy. Because if you sparred with You might get tapped. There's no yanking or weird shit or twisting that you didn't expect.

24:14 You have to fight them. You know, this was a big thing that, It looked scary and painful. What do you mean by headlong? And giving up was one of the hardest things I've ever done. It was more like a But I do want to get back into the grappling elements of it. Very uncomfortable to talk about. It was cool. Yeah, like my stress level just dropped tremendously

27:53 That's what I thought it was. level I could pretty much control what happens you know I could I could hold You're still in the game. It's really hard. uh it's a feminine culture like it's none of the macho stuff is going on right right you're not It's really a hard thing. Some for sure. But in other ones, it's a breeze, And so there's certain poses where everybody else is struggling and I'm taking a break I'm like whoo I can relax here

31:32 It's really difficult. fucking heavy weight and there's uh I think you need balance I don't think it Yeah, I always felt like it was just it burns through so much energy. don't want to talk about anything but jujitsu yeah so you want to do it to a point where you and traveling around the world. I often wonder about that myself. I was like, how many fucking people have an hour and a half, you know, the middle of the day or at

35:25 They were asking me, like, what kind of supplement should I get? You know? They're bullshit. mat and enter into jujitsu tournaments? Yeah, for sure, man. you get to take whatever you want to take. The main problem, though, was I was an adjunct. what I mean and so and I just didn't have the courage to quit it wasn't I courage to quit your job and move on to something else. Maybe you can do something offensive enough to people in your profession

39:07 They didn't get furious with me. strategy. About two weeks after the book came out, this article came out about me and about the book i said my wife like okay that ends it there it is really yeah is it well written yeah well did and we're having a nice time and and and at some point I lean across the table Right. any idea it like any form of conflict you know and they they would like to

42:21 Of a person who looks at that and sees no redemption and I think good about it I don't think there's anything even close. and you have to do that intelligently. And it has to be done in the watchful eye I have a lot of a problem with a lot of the thuggish behavior. I have a problem with, uh, Have you ever met an old man that used to fight? And I know UFC fighters who didn't used to be like that, who are like that now.

45:28 Some of the craziest like van der lees-ilva is one of my all-time favorites because his fights were fucking chaos he's always in condition. I mean, you see him. He doesn't get the attention because of that. He would pull off things where you just go, get the fuck out of here. He's got that kind of dark complexion and dark hair. And, you know, Weidman is way bigger, too.

47:46 He would weigh in at 203 and not cut any weight at all and then fight Tito Ortiz. get to change the tires yeah you don't get to upgrade the suspension he's taken some he's Yeah. His corner should have ended it. That he didn't have a mouthpiece and the referee didn't pick it up huge fan of the sport too, but also that We admire their heroism, their courage, their skill, stamina, all of it.

50:25 I've discussed it with a bunch of people. especially repeatedly when you're bouncing your wrist off of elbows and shoulders and even foreheads. I feel like when you tape up your wrist. You cast it. that I put over my knuckles and I tape over Punching you then you would with me kicking you with my shin. And that's totally legal. Head kicks, heel, like when you see like Terry Edom

52:20 Your legs are, I mean, especially not that weight class. there's a paper out in some They think it makes the sport safer. You can't throw that punch without gloves on. rules. We'll add these different elements. We'll make it possible for the referees to stop fight, And so they reformed. And so it was a well-intended gesture But could you, because a big percentage of the blows that guys receive, they receive in training,

55:38 They get in the way of a lot of chokes. The other guys glove you can't reach inside the other guy's glove. I wonder if you could do that. They're like, well, if you did that, and guys would just throw more kicks, they'd throw more knees, they'd throw more elbows. Yeah, but it's also like you get close to him, you get kneed, you get elbowed. But you're right, the kicker doesn't have to worry about it.

58:13 Like it's more curved, which I think is better to avoid some of the pokes like the old Pride gloves. Muay Thai, the art of Thai boxing, they have a very specific style of using the hands. And when guys utilize the same techniques to try to keep a guy off them, Yikes. And he showed he's still world class. I know even if they weren't legally clean. I mean if even if what they were doing was legal like Henderson and Vitor

1:01:01 He's he's fucking strong and it's very rare that you get someone who's real long but also really strong. I don't know idea how he makes that fucking weight, but he does it well and they pulled out of fights because Hennon Burrell trains like a monster ready for this Yeah, yeah, I do feel like I'm gonna pass out on the headstand He backed out the day of?

1:03:19 Right. One fight where he almost couldn't do it. Holy cow, really? And they go out. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Well, you know, that's amazing to me because there's such, you know, part of the reason I fought finally was because of the social pressure. And then I told another guy, and he said, well, so you're pussying out, huh? around the outside, jump over the fence,

1:05:43 sees you doing it you know what i mean try to move one way or another and their knee would just give Have you blown out a knee before? And you go to move left or move right, and it just goes boing. Dominic Cruz, of course, is famously going through his second one, or after he stepped down for a little bit. that fighters have Yeah. It's just shit design, man.

1:08:07 Well, when you see an NFL player, I remember one time I was in Phoenix, It was just like moving through this crowd. big time college football. And he was 6'7". do this. Except they get turned on When I mean that's why we have weight classes. That's why mighty mouse can never fight john jones You know, this whole thing with him is so tragic. and the people that he surrounds himself with.

1:10:57 your body the less the less not fear but the less confusion you have when you get into that ring, But Jon Jones had a father. He's so much better you're like, And when you, That's a fact yeah, and he doesn't just drink a little he drinks a lot. What's worse for you alcohol or cocaine? see all this craziness like testing positive for cocaine and the drunk driving crashing into the

1:13:35 You know, you're the fucking man. George fucked up too. Minimized sense of danger. Yeah, like nobody likes that fucking feeling man you and you went through it, right? Broadly defined. That's great, man. weighs on you, you know, weighs on you so heavy. that sense that the fight was right around the corner for maybe six months. Did it fuck with uh low weight what were you trying to weigh in at well i started the project at close to 200 pounds

1:17:09 That day, yeah. So you sweat out six pounds? Again, how are they going to know? no IVs. Jesus Christ. Well, they're crazy if they're not. almost all of them up to except for a few isolated events which were horrible beatings which is one They changed it after that fight. He had an episode where he like had a stroke And if you went back to the day, if you ever watched that guy fight, you've ever seen Gerald McClellan fight like back in the day?

1:20:37 And they, they went to war and Gerald had them all but knocked out, had them knocked he was all fucking woozy and whacked out. There's still going to be cutting weight. But I agree with you. to change once they're established they're insanely difficult to change. I think there's a bunch of things. Do you think the UFC would be against it or for it?

1:22:40 Well, first of all, people would think Until they figure it out. seven injuries. Seven surgeries there'd be a lot less neurological damage. I actually read a bare knuckle area so you're not screwed you're not putting so much damage here and you say Yeah, because your fist will just explode on contact. You very rarely see those because you just kind of can't.

1:25:34 He weighed in at 200. He's coming in the back of the skull. He tapped out verbally, but he walked out of the ring looking no worse for wear. Those punches weren't all that effective. Hackney goes out of the ring He couldn't get up. Yeah. He was stuck there on the ground. He's just laying there and getting He was giant. Oh, yeah. I think if he stuck with that, he probably wouldn't have broken his hand, which is kind

1:27:58 If you're not turning it over... Pancrase was an organization, for folks who don't know, in Japan. closed hands to the body. But boss Rooten, who's a Dutch kickboxer and had this fucking power and instead of doing what everybody else was doing, you could take to this. And those guys like Bas Rutten were critical for establishing that stuff. he's had significant neck injuries

1:30:36 And, you know, he was throwing fucking brutal combinations. He wore a bunch of different boots They were wrestling shoes. Everybody wore like those little... commissions you have bureaucracy and you also have, look, I love the UFC. They have an entire channel that they can promote it on. this guy who helped Chris sponsorship, so some guys are shying away from it because of that. So like the concept of a monopoly,

1:33:23 this big gigantic space that you have a wooden floor, this parquet floor on. Me, I can't see that good. and the backs, they're up against the cage, Less so with boxing. If you watch boxing, people are looking at the ring most of the time. Yeah, there was that. The guy's arm was trapped in the rope while he was getting armbar. Like you had the guy, like they were trapped inside the ropes. The guy's arm was trapped

1:35:00 fence and he was holding onto the fence and Immediate. They grab it. And they seem like they're never penalized on it. That might be the only way to stop eye pokes, to give them an immediate one-point deduction. But what I'm saying is something to cover You know those style You know, you never... most of the really strong grips don't ever involve your fingers sliding into the grooves

1:37:31 the the reaction vary or was it pretty What a monster. people don't know me right um and and that you know when so when those sort of people get a hold I always have to think of an actual person. behavior. thousands of years ago we know that we're in a far safer time, far more civil time, what the super progressives like to call toxic masculinity, like there's some, well, masculinity is complex, you know, and it is there, there, there are things

1:41:25 The ultimate fear is that one dick-waving contest will lead to nuclear war, that we're saying guy for a reason it's not going to be the wrong woman yes you know and yeah there reactions to violence that lead to a better world. Yeah. And that's really what the focus of my book is. Again, I expected without fighting it out to the bitter bloody end. Like chimps grab sticks and they pull them out of

1:43:56 Things like deadly duels and verbal duels, play fights among boys, and especially sports. If you're at a bar and you knock shoulders with somebody and somebody spills their beer, it's likely to go down like this. They'll push, they'll punch, they'll tackle, they'll gouge. And that's usually enough. have little Rockhold babies if she could. It's that he is that guy.

1:46:22 Just deal with it. There's no doubt about it. That's not what they do. And if something happens really bad in their life, they start weeping and they fall apart. human being in the 21st century. It, it's still there. It's still there be completely civil, where you can be completely kind, you can be a generous person, but get That's what I didn't know going in.

1:49:41 to be won. So why are they doing it? They're doing it because they want a challenge in their life. If you see a guy and he's a bully and he's like a 250 pound guy and he wants to fight a hundred pound guy Yeah, why does he want to do that? He wants to do that because he's scared of a challenge because he's a coward and they offered this other fighter a replacement.

1:51:13 right they are right they are right you know either you're willing to fight There's been some great taekwondo competitors and great Muay Thai fighters. I've seen the difference. terrified of the one guy who's going to expose them. tell you like he barely trained for that fight barely trained for him but gutted it was jacked his elbow was fucking jacked

1:54:05 to teach. native element to it. Some people what's a fighter? about was whether I'd be able to do it, just go in there and square off with people. I didn't Like a Floyd Mayweather is a perfect example. Spent time in jail for that. He's a fucking genius Them up, he tags them, he clinches them He just fights brilliantly Gets them to second guess what they're doing. He gets them off their game. He lights them up.

1:56:56 He scores. you know people are attracted to fighting sports I I think, for a lot of reasons. You know, there's probably a creature in us that kind of likes violence. And then as a sort of dramatic spectacle, I think it sort of fell flat, which is why But you're but you're able to appreciate as a as an aficionado she doesn't know anything about fighting right she actually said this to me I'm

1:59:35 But the way he's doing it, he's controlling all the variables. He's controlling it, And it'll pop you with that jab. It was artistic. Like that guy just is a destroyer. Yeah, never been knocked down, never been dropped, dropped never been hurt and he's knocked out everyone yeah i mean and you look at His father, the way Floyd Sr. said it, he ain't fighting no damn giant.

2:01:53 So I kind of get it. I think Golovkin's a bit more skilled than him, a bit more refined and more technical. That's right. That's right. That's yeah, and not these pussy Americans. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Bellator has a bunch of tough Russians. Well, there's a bunch of really high-level Russian guys that are in the UFC now, too, Does he wrestle Kane, too?

2:03:33 I fucking love that fight. I mean, when you see him fight a guy that is not at his level, that's when you really understand how good he is. in the groove right now. He just holds up. That's the most dangerous sport in the world, by the way. If the bulls were like, yeah, man, I want to see if I can fucking shake a dude. He was a professional bull rider.

2:05:31 Yeah, I have a friend who has that. I would agree to three fights in a night before I would agree to ride a bull. They're just kicking them and shit. Yeah, I was at this fair one time. Hold on. Okay, let me think. Right. That's insane. Okay, let me look at that. That would suck. That's the one I rode. good luck getting your fucking arms around a lion's neck it's hard to get your arms around a big guy's

2:08:21 You just get your arms around his neck. This was one of my best moments. It was a little tough, though. First of all, I don't like the idea of raising those things to do that. Right. First of all, there's a bunch of people sticking that thing with poison arrows or poison darts. It's really a great book. which means that they have to get the animal's head arranged in a downward position

2:10:56 Ooh. I have no idea. If you eat, like, I shot a moose in this guy right here in British Columbia. But yeah, it's called a European mount. They're both deer. Wow. Like there's some areas like the back, like the if he got older And my friend shot a water buffalo in Australia. Amazing. He got blown up in a and sebastian junger is not even shooting back no he's writing yeah and he's got his head up

2:14:44 He said he's not going back to war zones anymore. That's who it is. Still? The first time I got punched really hard in the face was really, it's really educational, But what was the negative aspects of it? perception. Did you ever get that same One time where, you know, this guy just landed this brutal left hook against me, The lights are kind of going on and off.

2:17:34 you sparring? Our gym was not all that enlightened of a place, you know, and the culture of it was but that's not like what your, your pursuit. It is my pursuit though. My pursuit is writing books. I was doing it because I wasn't making much of a living. Like talk us through the day of it. You know, it's your body's way of saying to you, dude, this is really dumb.

2:20:07 Nothing close to it. So at some point my coach was screaming at me. for that guy. The fight was 47 seconds long. okay now i know how to do this did you get hit or did you get choked i got arm barred oh that's not afterwards I was like, okay, right-handed these are all really bad things not to know and so the game plan was just we take him And so I got up and I yanked and yanked and yanked and yanked and got out and ran for it.

2:24:05 I'm winning. Everything's going great. Did you watch it? Yeah, yeah. My jiu-jitsu was pretty rudimentary. you're anticipating the defense and setting up a second attack off of that And when you don't know that, like the way you're describing it, like what's happening? on his chest I don't believe so that's what I'd like to do well the problem with me

2:27:26 And the reason why I'm flexible is because my body developed by stretching. And he was this big fucking football player. Fucking like hanging on to this guy for a long time and riding the bull but this guy was a dedicated athlete and one of the things that he did was he But that fucking guy would be there after class for 40 minutes longer than anybody else

2:29:14 He knew he was ridiculously strong. He knew he was ridiculously powerful and he's pulling his foot to his chest. and it was amazing. The width of the shoulders. He's like he's the fastest fucking guy I've ever seen like the fastest guy like you see him in the gym training too though could you grow the heart it's a muscle it atrophies it hypertrophies

2:32:21 Do you have someone who's pushing you correctly and what what, where are you starting out from? You're starting out from 39, 40 years of doing jack shit to Well, I knew I couldn't kick guys in the head I don't know what was Chuck Norris Yeah, yeah. It's hard to change your body in many ways. When you see someone who is really big, but then they lose the muscle mass, like maybe they'll get into something else and they'll stop lifting, they can get really big way quicker than the average person.

2:34:29 and then you dropped down to 170, There's no getting around that. Well, Michael Phelps ate 15 fucking pizzas a day. unquestionably accentuated You know you got a very good point. Yeah, well, that's the that's the dirty secret He's a great shit talker, too. But goes yeah you know those drug tests turns out they're really good Like the fighters won't be as good.

2:37:59 Some can. I don't think that at all. I can't tell you on the air the Anderson Silva situation. And there's also, I think that there is nothing. This is my opinion. I think that it is not only is there nothing wrong, but there may be a case for doctors to prescribe some sort of steroids, some controlled amount of some sort of steroids for catastrophic injuries, like massive leg breaks or, you know, pec tears or there's some pretty fucking significant

2:39:27 Most likely not. I mean, the big giveaway is you have all these old guys. Like, he never had a surgery. You have to be to be able to... a league where everyone's on it, like Vanderlei was without a doubt. And I said, one of my favorite Obviously. I don't know you know A year they should have given him a year yeah and even possibly suspicions of when he was competing in pride and even possibly suspicions of when he was competing in the UFC.

2:42:50 Some of them are lifetime. they take 75% of your purse, Anderson's going through, fine of 50% to 75%. Well, I wonder if that'll be enough. Especially if like these cases where guys are testing with like literally superhuman levels like Vitor when they when they eventually Wow, pull that down. I agree. I would love to be the guy, you know. That's how much he made in the UFC.

2:46:49 That's good money. As a human being, when I know him, when I meet him and see him, I always like to see him. They all love him. Yeah, that was the real Stone Age. Oh, that's a good question. There was just one killer after another. attitude and that drive. It's also skill. and conditioning up, I think he's here next week. that BJ I think I don't know how it's possible.

2:49:49 And I watched these guys on TV doing five-minute rounds after five-minute rounds. Neil Magny's got insane fucking cardio. Just insane work ethic and never getting out of shape and never abusing your body and always eating the right foods getting the right rest putting altitude what's the biggest thing that you got out of this the professor in the cage go get this

2:51:50 What did you what is the big thing that you got out of this personally or sort of an all the above I always found some way out of it. to sort of stand up to guys who were stronger than me and more skilled than me and sort of I have little children who are wonderful. as a kid that's awesome still would think back to like guys that I was scared of when I was in high school, but I never,

2:55:00 And I looked up, and I felt bad for the guy. They're not bad people. right? I can get a Kindle version of it.