Joe Rogan Experience #683 — Ethan Nadelmann Transcript

Transcript

0:01 Oh, an unusual early morning for me. An early morning episode of the podcast, Ethan. overconfidence where this whole thing could trip up. niche of the Republican Party that wants to keep locking up people for weed. I think this shit is going to come out of the closet like a broken fire hydrant. We led, Drug Policy Alliance led that effort to legalize medical marijuana in Jersey back

1:39 And then finally, he went on vacation, like by 18 months his term. And Christie ended up coming on our side. stuff. He'll talk about addiction as a health So he's been a mixed bag. He's involved in New Jersey politics. with the guy on one side of the bridge shut down traffic for two days because, you know, That's the way Giuliani was. Yeah, that's right.

4:43 I kind of miss the old Times Square. The island of Manhattan has got to be I want to ride that energy. all over the place. I drove my bike from the Upper West Side of Manhattan down to Brighton Beach, It's perfect. Yeah. And then there's all the other little towns, you know, and I've been out there twice this summer. hilarious yeah you know what they're doing in the water you know or not you should say the water

7:33 Yeah, they're trying to do the same thing to the Hamptons because the Hamptons has a real deer issue. with deer. So the question was what to do? Well, you couldn't shoot them in, bucolic setting. And they were overwhelmed with deer. These same people are eating cheeseburgers. They're eating turkey sandwiches. They're eating dead animals that are killed in a way more horrific way and live in a way more

8:52 I had bear last night. It's kind of a contradiction in terms. They got to do it. And then they say, with meat, most humane way of killing. It's rough. And the stunt was these people had to dunk their head in these giant buckets of blood. they lock the cow in place They hold the cow in place with the thing, and then they slice its neck, I grew up traditional and all that Sabbath observant.

11:54 Right. Like I've had ham by accident, probably had shrimp by accident. No, no, it's split huff chew its good. That's it. They don't they don't have a split hook. I have pause Well, not. than the organic food industry proportionally. proportionally faster. Wow. And that's partially because you have Orthodox Jews are the fastest No pig, the slaughtering is, I think, somewhat similar.

14:29 Yeah, there's that area around Cantor's Deli in LA. It's incredible. And I say, the only way I'd ever stop, I think, is if they made it a law that I had to keep kosher. One can envision a generation from now that No, you know what happens? out there, and it's basically no different than the kosher stuff, but I can't eat it And, you know, it's a beautiful steak that I can't eat

16:33 Oh, my God. that side. I'm going with my dad. Is your dad still alive? You know what's good about this? My view is irrational attachments are fine, maybe even good, so long as they don't hurt anybody else. that'd be kind of boring, too. So let's get back to drug legalization, because we've got right now, typically getting more votes than the guys who are running for governor or attorney general in those states got those years.

18:45 Capitol Hill right now that might allow some room there. But the guy, you know, the city council, They've got no members of the Senate. I mean, you know, D.C. was traditionally like two-thirds African-American. It was really highlighted when Marion Barry Right. Yeah. expensive so first typically gays will move in right because they don't have And I got to say, living in the Upper West Side where it's, I mean, I'm lucky I'm in a rent-stabilized apartment there.

22:03 been that, you know, The same thing with Wall Street. Like there's something about that. from the North, say from Albany or Montreal or wherever it's coming from. And it lands up going Yeah, it's a pretty awesome spot, but you can't get weed there. What kind of an asshole cop arrested David Lee Roth, by the way? Right, but they're always under the wire.

24:24 I would get it from my friend Eddie, and Eddie would get it from Jake the Snake was so annoying. He was so annoying, and he would sell. I would get it from my friend Eddie, and Eddie would get it from Jake the Snake. the kindness of strangers i mean wherever i go people are going to eat and anyone try a little acted in total bad faith and made a system that's far, far too tight. No logical reason for it.

25:53 Anything grown from the earth? to vote to legalize marijuana this year 2015 the only initiative on the ballot in Ohio in perpetuity, right? And you should pass on it and you should get weed illegally. Ohio is a major swing state in American politics. Meanwhile, everybody's so revolted by the oligopoly model, You know, it's been an evolution, Joe, because I would say when I really got going in this

29:03 I'd worked in the State Department's Narcotics Bureau. steroids, right? It was just, so I was very discreet. I never would deny that I had smoked an occasional consumer since I was 18. It's been a net positive in my life, you know, I smoke weed. I've been an occasional consumer since I was 18. And I say that's the way I view doing psychedelics as well.

30:57 Well, mushrooms is sort of the standard. I mean, that's one, you know, just over It's like, I wish she meant, you know, I need a big dose. Well, sort of. I'm sure he was if he's doing that. Very funny guy. And I can't believe I'm doing this in a doctor's office. And he goes through this period in his life where he starts injecting in that tank with Lily.

34:03 yes. So he whacks him with the ketamine. It's more of a conscious decision to enter into the psychedelic state. I've only done mushrooms and edible weed in the isolation tank. Gummy bears that are 250. Some of them, what is the Chiba Chews? associate the high dose edible with just being knocked on my butt and just like you know didn't So I'll eat like a cookie or something right before I get.

36:52 of your mind and you reexamine your childhood and like, fuck. Because I don't like some of the sleeping pill effects. It's serious business and the fact I mean it It's not silly. It's serious business. Oh, yeah. and the e-cigarettes coming along. No. and ate it on a plane. Well, I got to tell you, dealing from a policy perspective, I mean, we're doing everything

39:04 Seven? So that's like a calm, mellow, easy kind. what I need to work on more or what, what, what aspect of my career, my life I need to be putting when you get older, it takes more of a toll. I don't think I have tried that yet. We actually, I'll sell, I'll get you some. Oh, no, no. And I loved it, I guess, in the early 90s when I was in my early 30s. And I loved it, you know, and did it

42:21 But this is exactly what happened me and this dude were on a couch and we were holding hands. friends and we would occasionally get together and do an MDMA thing like once a year. And I just towards more hug energy, empathic, loving energy, you know, whereas, for example, psychedelics Yeah. And so he just called me up and I called the local ACLU and they got on it and we solved the problem.

44:55 You had people who were, there was a guy, Polish guy, who would do an occasional ayahuasca ceremony where he would invite musicians who would then make music together under the influence of What I hate bugs apparently Dennis does too so he does them in a different part of Peru where it's a Nobody ever finds them again. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, he didn't dose people, but he became an enthusiast.

47:06 Well, what is the risk, though? That's right. You know Bill Hicks' joke on that? bit about a positive drug story. forward on the psychedelics to begin to That's true. And I remember meeting a guy who had done some weird drug, and he had just totally flipped out. which can have these wonderful things, as you and I have experienced, we got to be aware

49:55 Jump from the ground, exactly. I mean, it's absolutely crazy stuff, right? We're passing 9-1-1 goods from Aaron and Laws. So if people are around and a buddy there's They were a part of a documentary called bigger stronger faster under-treatment of pain, right? That people were so flipped out about using opioids that people But then what happened is that what we really have in America is an epidemic of chronic pain, right?

53:13 They're appropriate for sort of severe pain, and they're appropriate for some chronic pain patients. taking the health of their body as significantly as they should, I think that there's a lot of people that just don't, ergonomic chairs are very important sometimes people like to sit on those balance balls that's tell me to take up yoga than any other piece of advice

55:42 way it sucks i will say an hour and a half of suck. But the only time I like feeling that, you know, stretching my, I hate, I hate stretching pass this down from generation to generation and the indian in india rather the hindus just reissued called zigzag zen no you should have this guy on, Alan Bediner. very interesting because you know there's also you have in some of these

58:26 I smoked DMT with my friends and I experienced God. There's a lot of people that have children that don't like to talk about drugs getting all worked up about that or telling their kids they can't go over. That sort of stuff that's going on. Richard Lee, the fellow who was driving that, and we agreed. We put in a provision there that basically said people could not be fired for testing positive for marijuana so long as they were totally competent at work, not high at work.

1:00:41 And I think that's what's happening. I haven't looked as yet in Oregon and Washington, but my guess is that the number of employers who are drug testing for Exactly. I mean, that was like really started it all off. It's all around the place. That's who they think of. I think you're right. And I think I've seen a giant shift just within the last 15 or so years.

1:04:08 When I say more than don't, more UFC fighters smoke pot than don't smoke pot. testing policy, to admit that marijuana has medical value, that Anti-inflammatory properties of it. It really is. Drug war goes crazy in the late-'80s. Yeah. It's just so unfortunate because it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a lazy person. These are the thoughts that

1:06:35 Some people can smoke marijuana 24-7. and are not having a problem with it. And there's a huge number of people who use marijuana in a way sort of dusted under the rug. You're blaming it on marijuana. These people that smoke pot and it I don't think so. And Brown talked to him a few months ago about this same thing. Hold on. I don't know, because in the end, there was a whole competitive process for who got the five licenses.

1:09:33 He's got to know that you're talking about something in Colorado that just the tax revenue alone has been $100 million. I've never heard other people say, oh, no, these guys are— I mean, but there's a part of him that actually— This is bad. Or there are people who have had experience problems with alcohol in their family. And I know. maybe? What year was it?

1:11:43 a really interesting candidate back then. He's a pretty good governor overall, but he stinks on the things that matter when it comes to drug policy. He smiled. And Jerry Brown was then the attorney general, and he did everything he could to kill it. had to block this. I really do. I gotta tell you with it between the prison guards union on the one hand and the private prison corporations on the other and please

1:14:19 Sick or that you have a prison corporations that are making money if more people get incarcerated and they'll end up becoming Really? got members of their union who are medical marijuana patients and dealing with state laws that probably prohibit their using marijuana. people behind bars in America, that we need to reduce the prison population, that there's this horrible racism

1:16:45 And then they get scared. It's either synthetic cannabinoids or maybe it's... There's also, I think, cathinone, leaf releases a slow drip of cocaine into the system, but it's basically almost a healthy form What are the properties of vegetables that are healthy? the Indians probably had a net benefit from a health perspective for exactly the reasons you're

1:19:20 The enamel in the teeth, too, right? It's just like people say about meth mouth and losing If you look at the 10 to 20 million kids, teenage boys in America taking Ritalin or these other things so they can focus better in school, of it is in our diets and how much of it is in things that you don't even consider. The same as the coca leaves. I remember Chris Rock, he at one point doing a routine

1:21:49 So the power of those substances, their psychoactive properties, we're used to them. no big deal. They didn't have as much food people were much smaller than because they weren't it was literally malnutrition Like, this is crazy. I don't know if he flies first class, but even if he does, it's not first class enough. I think the message is beginning to sink in. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because the fat people are dying. I think the message is beginning

1:24:45 even a physical issue it's the same thing when you're talking about people You know, I've got to tell you, what some people would say, and I think there's really around mind-body consciousness. But the second one was I had gone through three terrible episodes of back pain and sciatica. back pain and leg pain and radiating down. He goes, it's overwhelmingly bullshit. And his theory is

1:27:14 being able to pick up my little daughter again, do the sports I used to do, not by dealing with what's really causing it, but by trying to feed it things that we think That's real. Yoga's one of them. I think even Sarno would say there are people who have legitimate injuries who need this sort of stuff. discs and that lower back pain. Now, it could be that you've had a serious injury, right? You've

1:30:16 something else. Well, let's hold on a second there because carpal tunnel is real. And one of the 12 hours a day. Well, first of all, you couldn't type as fast because there was a whole reason why the Cordy method was invented to keep the keys from binding up because now we don't need Because if you're eating bread, your body breaks that stuff down, processed flours, directly to sugar.

1:32:02 I'll say that my takeaway from going through that pain experience and all the reading I've done on this thing some of that stuff. Well, actually, it's because of lifestyle choices. I mean, if you think about You may be right, that could be it. not as vulnerable. And because it pushes you to deal with underlying emotional stuff that may be something that supports you all day long, your back.

1:34:34 I mean your your back just feels way better just feels like you have more. It's more vigorous with a core exercises It's a different sort of thing where you're holding your own body weight getting in an elevator going to your office sitting in your cubicle all that's And in some ways, the best way to deal with that stuff is movement. I think in that sense, Sarno's at an excellent point that pressure and stress and pain and just

1:37:29 stretch my back out, stretch my body out. Look, man, I work in an office a lot of the time and it's just so easy. the strain, there's been a lot of studies done on this, the strain is in a very specific area. of common ingredient in almost all spiritual practices, meditative practice, is just simple five-year-old. Let's do this together. We'll do it together. And I'd do it, you've got to breathe in and breathe out. Let's do this together.

1:40:03 And you take this shallow shallow panicky breath. I think if I would ever decided to pursue medicine instead of what I did do, I think the single most them and scaring them. The way in which the pharmaceutical companies drive what drugs people of life are really unnatural. The life that we've set up for ourselves, the requirements of managing the alarm goes off,

1:42:51 life. You're doing what you enjoy doing. And I'm very lucky to feel the same way. But I think that I think so. Look at millions of people, young people now, going to sort of the whole kind of dance world, drinking too much they're overheating and people get hurt and the question is young people going I mean, their foundation is fucked up. experiences are giving you.

1:46:12 When you look at, you know, now, People are interacting with the world in an entirely different way. And there's so few guides. He switched to a flip phone have this public Facebook account was like my staff managed but then my phone And now I'm scrolling through and I'm going, oh, God, now I understand what people are looking at. And you talk about sugar, fat, salt, nothing more addictive than that little

1:49:30 It's just too much. And I got to tell you something, I haven't done it since I did it for a few days over Christmas. And I think that managing that is really critical. I mean, I'm trying to do my few little disciplines, like trying not to look at my phone rely on all these other people to have access and to be able to input, you know, into your he's using this as a vehicle like a whiny baby screaming out for attention and oftentimes that squeaky wheel does get the no I say

1:53:18 till Monday, right? I mean, just so people know there's a sense of space. Because if someone's telling you that you can't smoke a joint after work, what they're telling you is they own your body. If you've been up all night because you were in pain or having a fight with your wife or your kid was sick, that may affect work performance. themselves are the issue, and the

1:55:14 Somebody's drug addiction cannot be an excuse that will allow them to do harm to others. let judges impose their own Like, who the fuck is this judge? So now he's uh locked up they put him in this uh this database as a sex offender and yeah and one of the judge I mean, some of these guys are doing the who have their own biases and prejudices, should be determining how people live a life

1:57:53 I mean, that's that's that show the whole show is she's a cunt and she's allowed to be yeah I liken it to sports. I think the real problem with prosecution and even with police is that Why do we lack up more black people at a rate that far exceeds the rates of incarceration in the Soviet gulags of the 30s, 40s, and 50s? in the hands of people whose job it is to take away people's freedom and to use no judgment

2:00:40 Really appreciate it. Let's work on that ballot initiative. Thank you.