Joe Rogan Experience #685 — Jeff Novitzky Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Ah, we're live. All right, Jeff, thank you very much, man. Appreciate you coming on here. Department of Justice out of Los Angeles. I was one of the case agents on it. So I was associated you know, I was on a personal level. that decision. Hey, do I want to keep going? And if I do, I'm going to have to make a decision It was about lying and telling the truth and misusing the justice system.

3:03 You know, it's funny. trial itself, I think it was less than $100,000. And the comment was, geez, this is the most cost So it was almost a necessity to have to do it. But it's really about the original crime, wasn't it? So tell the truth. But I tell you, even in a situation like that, I tell people all the time, man, being under investigation to begin with, going through a public trial with, you know, potentially embarrassing things about you.

6:04 There was ex-girlfriends that were called it, that went on the stand. home runs. And it turns out that there's something involves science and chemicals, and we don't like aspects of, you know, being healthy and working out, all of a sudden And that's the most compelling aspect of it as far as the argument for chasing it down is get signed on to a pro team going over to Europe and realizing, oh shit, to go any further, I'm

9:40 we talked about this when I saw you in Brazil, that I had a buddy that was a professional cycler for a while. Then after you and I had this conversation, A bit? In a biological passport, if I'm not mistaken, what that means is, like, say if we test you down, doing two and three a day, wrestling, strength and conditioning, kickboxing. It's just, it begins to raise questions about what's going on. Now, a lot of times a biological passport

13:05 Correct. companies I don't think it's approved for use but there's animal based I just read it today, and we do this in our program as well, is there was in cycling, they will freeze But, you know, there's still reputation and legacy at stake. So outside that freezer will be the paperwork. So far as you know know this hasn't been approved I think he was taking, like, gummies or lozenges, you know, take it at night.

16:56 did he do when that guy, or positive, depending on how you're looking at it, when that guy came And compared to 10 years ago, it's night and day. those don't lie. And the difference between that and fighting, clearly in my eyes, telling them to do steroids and get up to 185. and testosterone and human growth hormone and all this thing, and you're inside of a ring or a cage,

20:00 a lot of trainers and they raised their eyebrows and shook their heads like, oh, shit's going to be different now. it's unique to MMA or UFC. What is unique is what you just talked about, the importance of it and short term, this could hurt the UFC. But, you know, in terms of long-term and short-term health and safety of their fighters, but I know a guy who was in his 20s who was on TRT.

22:33 who's famous for his work with traumatic brain injury, a lot of soldiers that have come back from getting blown up by IEDs, Like, you shouldn't be, like, putting a patch on that didn't look into, you know, things as hard as they should have. That's my guess. I don't know. Like literally all they have to do is like work out really hard, do a crazy workout,

24:34 You're like, wow, you need some steroids to fix that. look at to determine if there really isn't a medical need. Like what would that be? Testosterone would you um test them when they're not doing that drug whatever they need and then make sure Now, what's the reason why they can't use an IV? primary reason. I think water also prohibits them for some health reasons. Those are many.

27:54 so cells will not be able to get rid of fluid because they've got too much too quick. Now, sorry to interrupt, but the concern that a lot of people have is that a lot of these guys are cutting a tremendous amount of weight. and you would see them the next day. Are they done by Gatorade? Number two I thought was interesting is your perceived rate of exertion.

30:43 The oral rehydration is not going to get smarter about those weight cuts and should not be excessively So that fluid around the head, the brain that's protecting it and have them compete against other elite athletes that are the same size. There's a giant jump in between them. There's 185, and then there's a real problem in the UFC with weight classes. There's a giant jump in between them.

33:36 less, the ability to push out of a lock, to break out of a submission, to break out of a clinch, NCAA went to the extreme and banned most weight-cutting practices. They banned plastic suits, saunas, things like that. a lot of pushback from the athletes about, you know, Have you had the conversation with them whether or not there will be additional weight classes?

36:14 The fact that he makes 185 is shocking enough. I mean, that's how he made that weight. And I think, you know, these are the toughest guys and girls on the planet I just think that there should be some sort of an option for these guys. I just think that these gaps, if you're going to institute this no IV thing and they come back and their, their doctor says, listen, man, you're really fucking dehydrated.

39:34 But, you know, hey, it's a balancing act. But that's extreme. say, a Vitor Belfort fights more than once every six months. At the most, you might fight three which, you know, as we get out and educate our fighters, I talk about those terms and I ask, It's not going to happen. I mean, if it does happen, it gives them all this confidence. Then all of a sudden you take that away and they just don't

42:50 That mental burden for a lot of these athletes far outweighed the physical enhancement they were Who's coming down? It's crazy crazy that was a huge mental task and they can't hide either right it's not that he knew of an athlete that was not clean. And so this athlete decided to go overseas and We're going to give you a urine sample. We're going to give you a urine sample.

46:14 and the doping collection officer the d the dco has to physically witness the athlete providing and they're vetted before and collections done in another country versus when, you know, of the cyclist that just got caught for the drug that's still in a clinical trial. And what the and use the test and caught somebody. tent. they have tremendous effects cryogenic chambers I'm a huge fan of those they

50:28 I mean, if you take EPO, doesn't it do exactly the same thing as sleeping at altitude? was Ali Bagutinov, which shows you how impressive Demetrius Johnson's cardio is. Yeah, that you can get your hematocrit. EPO and were using it. They were dropping dead in their mid-20s because of having strokes drugs like this versus, you know, training at oxygen and oxygen tents. I think maybe you can

53:09 burning it off it's just yeah keeping it circulating keeping it certainly but also the if you have a lot more red blood cells floating around that are able to clot, then yeah, I think a lot of it is athletes are a little bit younger in their mid-early 20s, my opinion. Uh, but I understand a lot of times why these decisions are made. There's such say hey I understand why I made that decision I get it as opposed to you know the hell you're

56:23 these guys have to trust each other so maybe quantify a little bit We had this conversation in Brazil about Vitor Belfort's levels when he was tested during his camp for Chris Weidman. Vitor tests at 1,200. But urine results like that depend on, I think it's called your excretion level. marker in urine. The amount of testosterone that you have to epitestosterone, the levels can

1:00:11 six to one at one point in time. That was criticized, and it was dropped down to four to one. And if it is foreign-based testosterone, how much of a time, like once you get the test So ask that question again. In our program, it will be. That will be as opposed to, you know, hey, let's do the testosterone, So under our program, oftentimes a CIR test will be done right away, regardless of what

1:02:38 I mean, that's what they say. They'd have the ability to do that, yes. balco you look at biogenesis uh you look at kirk radomski who's a new york mets bat boy that was warrant and they find a list of UFC athletes of what drugs anti-doping. So we discovered drugs in Balco that were designer drugs that they weren't tests for. when we go out and question an athlete and they say, I didn't use anything, we will say, you're

1:06:50 Like, how much does that work? Who knows what the value of that was, of that advertising. A lot of people are suspicious of him, of course, because, I mean, have to take everything he says with a little bit of grain of salt um i read something the other day and you're not, you know, and I enjoy everything about those people. It's always fun to see how the other side lives.

1:09:34 He's got a bit of a platform. I don't even know. And he said it was just one of those days where he was in a certain mood, And he's good. he would knock mendez out in the second round and he knocked mendez out in the second round Jesus Christ. he fights Aldo Jesus Christ that's gonna be crazy if Aldo makes it to it without under my title is to try to provide our athletes to reach out provide them with other resources in

1:13:08 E-X-O-S. I think Rashad Evans went down. Correct, we are. hey this is the world-class place to go to your training and learn how to do me that I'm, I'll be the first to admit, just learning and coming up to speed. I mean, you Well, it depends on who you ask because there's a lot of people that I respect and when BJ was in his prime, That these guys already know how to fight and that really they should be putting almost all of their effort into conditioning. Getting their body to the point where their body can perform at an

1:17:44 down instead of doing that you would just drill up in the gym so i think there's a lot of variation there yeah i agree i think that's when you do an extreme cut and then put that weight back on. The best example that I've ever used is Travis Luter. I've never seen anybody look as bad as him. He couldn't walk to the scale. him in the house he said it was like rolling with ricardo laborio he said his level was like super

1:21:12 numbers, Joe, of what some of these cuts that you've heard about and seen. I heard one the you know they're genetic freaks to begin with so an advocate and maybe sit down with some of these fighters and say, hey, look, look what Yeah, it's devastating. and then rehydrate back up to whatever the hell they weighed before that. is the UFC middleweight champion of the world. If Chris Weidman releases his title and says,

1:24:14 Conor has a name. I think it's dangerous, and I also think it's irrelevant. what it would what is johnny hendrix actually weigh when he fights when johnny hendrix is at I mean, all I can say is, and I already am being this, but I'm going to be the squeaky wheel here that, you know, I think there has to be something that allows these guys who they've, you know,

1:26:57 He's already talked about fighting Jon Jones. But at what price? You've got to talk to them. They're willing to do anything to win. They're superhuman on so many levels so many levels their fighting skills their ability to you know withstand pain Yeah, well, it's, I mean, that mean, that's the role of the anti-doping Great drug. Potentially. And that really lies with WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency. And they are constantly

1:31:11 which is WADA. That hearing was disturbing on so many levels. Yeah, he was testifying about the Cialis that he thought was Cialis that he was using. I mean, the courtroom burst out in laughter. Hadn't heard it that he was taking or the excuses that he was taking liquid Cialis taking that he could have come in and said, Hey, I used a protein powder and found something in it.

1:33:50 from his broken leg? the liquid Cialis. I wasn't aware of that. That didn't come up in the hearing. Yeah, something that at least now would not be legal, including testosterone replacement, which I don't think people should be as forgiving Is that a real issue with athletes or is it a bullshit excuse they use to Ultimately, you're liable for everything that

1:37:22 occurrences like that. Something like that could be grounds for a reduction in sanction anybody. I don't think that's realistic. But isn't that kind of contradicting? There's a performance-enhancing benefit of creatine. Is there an avenue that fighters have where they can send you guys stuff that they're thinking about taking, Can I take this one, that one?

1:40:21 don't touch that one. I can give you red flags. But you know, even, That got into the B12. The B12, I'm thinking it was maybe, I mean, it was a reputable retail store You see that happen way more often. Wow, that's crazy. Oh, go back up a little bit. Okay, you got it. Product contains a list of prohibited substance. There was a new law passed. Look, look at all this stuff.

1:44:47 Okay. That's crazy. So an athlete going to a vitamin store and just buying a bunch of these things So you and I, and in fact, I think the Bells you had on last week as part of Bigger, Faster, Stronger did a little piece on what the dietary supplement industry is. which I feel very fatherly over, I would call on the FDA to do a way better job than what I saw was happening on the inside.

1:47:18 How many, if you see, is there a number that shows how many they have? But, wow, I'm looking at it a different way right now because of that. We likely would. very strange point when it comes to technology and innovation that they're, it's, I don't think that they experiment with with people. In fact, I have a friend who knows someone that was, It's crazy. Um, you know, I know anti-doping when they get together

1:51:02 I mean, have you seen that happening? Kind of the motto. and determine, hey, this, even though it's marketed or promoted for this, Myostatin inhibitors. And they've been able to do it to mice. was born in Germany that has that same issue that these cows have and these whippets have. Scroll up. like a kid with an adult arm the other one looked like a kid that had like a

1:54:27 That kid is going to be a stud. obviously strong as hell. Well, doesn't, I mean, LeBron James is a genetic freak accident, is he? I mean, I don't know. And part of that job was to monitor everything coming in from China and the stuff that came through there. And that's why often you see supplements that don't have on the label what's really in them.

1:57:18 I mean, they intelligently target, you know, depending on what areas it comes from and what, you know, what it's declared at. at, the public can go look at. They can look at the water prohibited lists, the water prohibited to say we're not hiding anything here it's all out in the open what we're doing so that athlete Nevada, California started doing it too.

1:59:58 So, yeah, I mean, in terms of, again, understanding why an athlete will do something, hey, when you're not testing anybody, unless it's on the day of the fight, which is really just an IQ test. if not the greatest of all time, one of the top two or three greatest of all time, the other 549 behind him if he's at the top of the game? urine. They're testing for specific drugs. They're looking at a biological passport. So if a

2:02:29 person that's telling me that all this shit's going to be happening from now out? And the hope so he was still allowed to compete, and a lot of people were kind of critical of that. those drugs or those substances will be your hard substances, including cocaine, other drugs. So there's only really a 48-hour or so window that those will be tested for. Those recreational drugs are not tested for out of competition. In the John Jones

2:04:50 It was a mistake of checking a box. So when it turns out positive, he's not punished for it the collectors aren't going observing. If you have holes in the system and it gets out, it doesn't high in order to test positive. Yeah, likely. So you'd have to be under the influence while you're fighting. USADA's tested all their Olympic athletes, thousands now under this standard of 150 nanograms per milliliter

2:08:04 Damn Nick Nick Diaz is a beast I mean I don't advise it but I respect it it's kind of crazy It makes me understand the techniques better. I find that it's not that good for learning things. You just tie your shoes. can't do it. They'll smoke a little pot and they're like, fuck, they just hate it. It freaks so it's it's interesting to hear you say that i think it can be a performance enhancing drug i

2:11:27 I think that it's quite possible that there's an advantage to using it. I just think there's too many possibilities. I'm an enthusiast. We pretty much nailed almost everything. Really? The physical appearance smell test. I mean, I've seen it on guys that have tested negative and I've seen guys that have been But yet once he wins the title, everybody starts pointing fingers at him.

2:15:00 Like see if you could find a picture of him where he just looks jacked. Is that from the same fight? I mean, that's why he's the champ. You know, over that 15-year law enforcement career I had involved with all these cases, of the year. Everybody will look at my stats on the webpage and see I was tested 10 times and know, but I would like to think that, you know. It'll certainly become that. If it's not that right now, it'll certainly become that.

2:17:47 ex-wife or an ex-husband? Okay. I bet he would just fuck with him, you know? Potentially, sure. do it and develop it. There's some super intelligent people on that mission out there. So I'd be If they test positive, they test positive. 365 days a year testing. I mean, you look at the other professional sports here, The biological passport's huge, so even if you don't find a specific drug, we can go over time and look at abnormal variances.

2:21:35 just these freaks that looked, they didn't even look like real people. hormone and yeah it's it's hard to say i mean they they do have they have and i know and i've and I don't think that's happening. you know, USADA administering it. And say in the collection process during the season, where if they're not there for a certain day, then that can be used against them.

2:24:18 there's a sanction that's if you know they just can't locate you or you didn't do a good enough even then because he didn't test at all. But then he admitted that he was, in his words, I mean, I don't know if that's the case, that he avoided it. I mean, there was, you know, obviously, I think Nevada played, you know, publicly disclosed what was Everyone will know who they are.

2:26:35 Sure. of like with the biological passport, if you take growth hormone, it will affect certain taking the time to explain all this stuff and thank you very much for this incredibly comprehensive