Joe Rogan Experience #694 — Jane McGonigal Transcript

Transcript

0:00 All righty, Jane, what's happening? You got a brain injury and you decided to make a game to help your brain recover. I was really depressed and anxious. And I was just in a hurry, and I just full force right up into the corner of the cabinet, hit my head. And all I could remember was it's not George Bush anymore. And you can get a serious head injury as like a football player by doing this.

2:21 I did not go unconscious. And, you know, it was no internal bleeding or anything. Like if I would try to go into like a Whole Foods, the fluorescent lights would feel like I was like under fire from weapons. Well, from working for the UFC, I've seen people that neglect those. it turns out like the first week of recovery can really determine because I've seen them all like a million times and it's it's a and yet

5:31 But you're when you're you know, when you have a concussion, you're not thinking clearly. You are not a rational person. the scab, you can't be picking at the scab by doing things that are triggering And I'm like literally having him Google suicidal thoughts. And so fortunately, he was finding articles like, wait, one in three people with a concussion have suicidal thoughts.

8:12 Yeah. like, why? I don't know. I had never, I never had that before. And once I knew that it was a symptom offered really powerful anti-anxiety meds, depression meds. I chose not to take them of people who didn't play. So this is one of, I mean, this is one of the first validated Those two options are so strange. I got to prove this theory. the neurochemistry of depression is not conducive to that.

13:03 at its worst is that it just i mean it just saying, oh, you'll be fine in a few days. It just, it made me, it kind of freaked me out. I mean, as opposed to taking a capsule. What about hemp oil? And it's a nootropic blend, and he created it to deal with some of the symptoms that he had had or some of the repercussions from all the head trauma that he had.

15:20 I was struggling. I mean, I would, like, I would sit on the bathroom floor and like cry for hours, but quietly. I was like, Peggle will be easy. It's like But even that was too stimulating. So I just started making up rules for myself about doing things that you would do in a video game, like collecting power-ups or spotting, like making a list of the bad guys and all the ways,

17:20 I did not choose to hit my head. So I'm going to be like her and just rise to the heroic occasion and kind of try to tap into my sense of determination and being a badass. you wind up never getting better. You're kind of convinced that you're just flat on your back And so with all kinds of injury and illness now, because you get stuck in that pattern.

19:09 I can't go to like a Lady Gaga concert, which I really wanted to do. you have to really sort of the main, you're, you're basically using game, game models to kind of structure your life, I'll watch TV or something. And that can really lead to a lot of confusion bad Facebook or Twitter from someone who's like just been concussed. And they're like, what do I do?

23:22 Now, Yeah. In the very early stages? where it's like, okay, now we're working, or you've got kind of your thickened up lesions not a roadmap that's set out. No one's ever done this before and you just sort of take your game But that that feeling of hopelessness really went away. I mean, people were writing for, you know, I have cancer. absurd to me for people with much more serious problems than I had to. So that's why I wrote the book. It's why I started doing,

27:45 You can go back and look at, like, the first YouTube videos of me. I'm going to make a YouTube video concussion, something like that. Let's let's play this real quick Oh, I mean, I'm probably just sitting there with my laptop in my lap. You're talking way slower. I mean, you know, and I'm not sure entirely why. Oh, I think in Philly we called it sliding boards

31:23 parents and they mentioned, well, you know, the last time you had a concussion, you were feeling better much faster. I'm like, oh, I do remember like wearing a sling for a collarbone, but I didn't know that I had a concussion. Covering your head? She came over to my apartment after she had been moshing. It was? No, and I'm short. Yeah. That's the recognition of vulnerability is an issue with people that

33:55 But I'm not going to go skiing. You know, I can only imagine I would just start skiing at 45 my first time skiing Didn't you tweet the rooftop or like the guy in Russia who goes hangs up? I mean, it looks like a video game, right? Oh, yeah. crazy fucker like what is wrong with kids the 10,000 hours in yeah yeah but good lord when you see something like that knowing what you went

38:02 has definitely affected my enjoyment. I mean, almost all of the players that take a lot of hits suffer from serious injuries for the rest of their lives. willing to take that risk are people who feel like they have nothing to lose. You know, um, you know, this thing that we've created Oh, no. super better, you know, to just finish the clinical trial. She's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

41:29 after it but not those ice baths i know i have done i run marathons so i have done some ice bath It's like a gel pack thing. It's almost like a hoodie and you put it on and it's like they Yeah. No, you got to pull up like Google Scholar though, for me. I want to see like, is there any literature on this yet? Because I'm, so I'm like- It's important when guys get hit to ice their head after it's over.

43:22 They say like five minutes after you stop breathing, supposedly you have like brain cell death. this or wait till like the emt shows like if happens, should I start packing ice or yeah, I'm not sure. I'm you're really suffering from something debilitating like depression you will And that's why it's like when you realize how vulnerable people are purposeful, positive action can actually make a big difference.

46:22 What do I have to do? Just go, let's just go do it. And at that time I was, you know, I was, you know, I just gotten my PhD, I was doing research, I was, you know, I was used to being able to have an anytime you have an injury or an illness, you don't know who you're going to be at the end of it. You know, like if my phone rings, I won't answer it.

49:06 So when I had the injury, I couldn't think to myself anymore. But that's so that was that was that was one of the sort of super better, you know, changes for me as I realized. is that it's kind of a combination of both introvert behavior and extrovert behavior, Yes. Hmm, but I think it's more of an effort for everybody than it looks maybe that's a good point. Yeah, I think that

51:48 I think that there's something very strange that's going on in our culture right now with so many people spending a giant amount of their time only interacting with people through text. And so one of the things that we know that's happening in video games is that there's a really big difference between playing a video game in the same room with somebody and playing online.

53:15 Even if the game is violent, even if we're competing, all of this happens. And it happens Because it only works if you're in the same physical space with them. um so what it's been measured oh yeah yeah yeah so what we've seen is if you take the same game you know, unless you're actively trying to change your personality to be more aggressive, What if you, have you done it in layers where, you know, like I used to do land parties with

55:54 you can't hear their voice have you changed have they seen like what what if the mirroring Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you I don't know the controls. Get away from the ghosts. But it would be interesting because we know that if you get this mirror neuron effect, play video games. If you know how to play a musical instrument and you watch somebody playing that same musical instrument, your brain starts to, you know, activate as if you were playing it

58:54 And then it would make you play better. It makes them play better basketball. Yeah, I know it's the case with pool slam in tennis, because I'll watch I have a dog named Songa. Because my brain has spent two weeks mirroring everything I see. But I totally understand that. like be more this or more and sort of tune into how people are doing to the point where a lot of

1:01:48 There was all these Attell babies that were running around. That sounds nice. changes your brain. The sentence you just You're making a memory or you're sort of activating a pattern. It is. it's it's it's really good to surround yourself with people who inspire you because they they getting better. Whereas if you're surrounded by people who are doing it, it becomes familiar to

1:05:05 those goals just by having watched the sort of mirror version of yourself having done it that's to the point where it becomes like a part of this is your reality. So it's like, there's a little bit of nuance to it that's really interesting. So, for example, if you are like walking on a treadmill while you're watching a custom But I do like the idea of using it purposely like that.

1:07:40 and you're thinking about the things that require effort on your part, It's like magic. So self-efficacy is when you feel like you have the skills and abilities it's going to be. I've got my resource. I know how to fuel during the run. I know how much sodium I is just thinking about what you're doing and the more you think about what you're doing and the

1:10:40 So if some so I've talked to lots of neuroscientists allows you to pay closer attention and to learn faster, right? So anytime you're trying something who played a video game about cancer were, for two to three months later, missing fewer doses Every time that you consider a goal, your brain stops and says, is it worth it? Because your And this is true if you're doing push-ups, you know, like, do I really feel like doing 100 push-ups right now?

1:14:22 You have to be priming your brain to increase the dopamine in your reward pathways. Well, specifically, it's anticipation of feedback. get a dopamine hit. So every time you make a prediction, your brain gears up to either celebrate that you were right. the plug. only if you can win right well and it's probably what's going on it's his brain is saying you know

1:16:32 Yeah. like if I started to playing tennis today, of getting better. I mean, that's the basis for self-efficacy. So it's like, sometimes people ask There's a fundamental reason why people like playing games We're gonna it's gonna be a draw every time kid this is bullshit I know. But if you came home and your kid was Fucking hated chess. Game addiction is absolutely real.

1:19:28 There's a whole chapter in the Super Better book about game addiction and how to stop it, how to reverse it, and what tends to lead people into it. control, is if they're playing you know i'm playing with you know my friends It's like improving my relationships or I'm focusing on strategy or building my teamwork skills or whatever it is. out of cycle for any addiction is to start priming the

1:22:08 So you're seeking out that weird chemical reaction in the mind when you're stimulated by something else. impact on our and the brain is no longer having that, it's like you lose your ability ability to imagine is the term positive is the term of explaining it because it's, I mean, it's a pretty provocative argument. It says that addiction feelings. So it's the brain is working properly. It's not broken. It's not it's not a disease in

1:25:20 goes yeah i um i can't not play it and then that's when he said that like um it was like And then when you are thinking about yourself and what you're good at and what you're capable of, that literally you can ask someone change your mindset. I mean, it's definitely hard. But what we know from studies of all kinds of I figured it out from trial and error over a long life of addiction. I grew up being addicted to a

1:28:16 And then I would get up in the morning and go work out. of running out the table, fucking exciting yeah but this is interesting because like you become a more interesting person I mean, this is kind of kind of interested in that idea now. But it's just like even I like with running. Right. is for people to understand like how this system works so that you can say, look,

1:30:57 That's not going to work. is a big part of my adrenaline junkie thing. It's actual nerves. It's like playing poker is, So there's all sorts of craziness involved in it and the intensity and the focus that you need I'm very hot it's funny because you were asking about focus earlier. You know, and you know, I remember one time having this conversation with this girl.

1:33:56 Either we're going to hang out and have fun or we're not going to hang out anymore. relationships oh sure falling in love is an addiction. And that's why you get, you know. People who fall in love at different rates, it's not necessarily that you're a crazy person and I'm a normal person and therefore I shouldn't date you. Yes. Like what exactly is going on there?

1:36:23 You know, like they'll stop talking to some of You know, come on over for the game. Oh, Gotcha. That's strange. Yeah. You know, they're bolting, they're not shooting heroin. Good. This all sounds good. Yeah. Like they've stolen your happiness by taking off and just simply leaving you alone. I mean, it's all the metaphors that people use. It's why kindness feels good.

1:38:31 You know, cooperation and kindness, you know, those things help society and help evolution. Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, you can kind of intellectualize it down to the point where it's no longer enjoyable. what's the fucking point? or over analyzing to the point where you can't even enjoy what it is. but I like, you're focusing on him. There's a lot of but no i mean he's alive he lives in america

1:41:22 the colbert rapport a few years ago. And when you did that... off balance. So I'm like, I'm trying to go into that mode. And'm like well you know yes of course it is and he's like if life is a game we spend all our time playing it why are we so bad at it and i'm like You know, but it is just a game. aspects of behavior. Like, that's a guy who took the game and decided to go to a fucking place he totally doesn't

1:44:19 What are you doing? yeah weird way he's collecting bodies yes yeah you know yeah and I think the Meanwhile, you're on a boat. Do you know who says that? It's a genuine thing that he does. You're going to run for three and a half, four hours, whatever the hell your time is. Yes. Although sometimes, Well, there's definitely that. Because they're hiding.

1:48:13 there playing chess yeah that's got to be like the new like zing like man you're playing tic-tac-toe they find themselves, like institutionalized is the word, kids who have been from the top colleges who have been taught to play the game of achieving and achieving in this really rigid structure. acquire that skill for yourself. Well, it's interesting because I've been so steeped in psychology literature,

1:50:27 everything that is a trigger. We know that that's not true. So when I, you know, when I hear about Yeah. And I should think about not what I want to say or how I want to say things, but rather how people might view what I'm saying and how they take it in. Yeah, yeah. And you're separated from your family for the first time. fat stupid i don't even mean like physically what i mean mean is just like this, this bloated sort of lazy entity that is creating this environment where you're, you're establishing this artificial realm.

1:53:58 They're not creating that culture. Right. It's really more at the level of They want they don't want the things that feel painful or feel like failure or feeling stress. Why are they pointing out all these flaws in all these other people's behavior to control them? I play games. If I log into an online video game, I don't want to be called a cunt Every time I log in to play does that happen a lot?

1:56:47 That's what I was going to ask. than the people being any different in that world? together i mean when some when a nobel laureate says that to a conference of you know young It was very self-deprecating. So his intentions are totally good. Is it possible that it's like so this is actually a perfect example, because so if he was joking, right, so his intentions are totally good.

1:59:05 There's an article in the leaked transcript, he was trying to be funny and he's really just sort of an odd guy Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. His trouble with girls. Three things happen when You know, why don't you go out and do something real? and it's damaging It can be offensive. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's it's all out of context and it's all also you're dealing

2:03:04 maybe you'd understand how his brain This guy, he's old and he's white. well if you are in college the the overwhelming anxiety of being a young person who has gone from Well, you will point your fucking fury of sexual rejection and all the all the shit that makes a person feel weird things that is really upsetting if you're in the middle of the game.

2:05:17 Right, right, right. and I'm glad that things are changing in society I'm really excited to see companies doing that. you know, hordes yelling at me because they thought that I was breaking one of the new rules You know, if you catch on fire, you know what to do. Well, they're trying to change the game. Yeah, so it's like I understand Yeah. I just think it's dangerous.

2:09:24 But I don't have to get into a fight with them about that., you certainly don't. You should ignore them or shit on them. And I went to Mike Huckabee's fucking Twitter page and saw that this crazy old asshole was like saying that there's a war against Christians and that like hashtag religious liberty. and that he's probably gay. And this guy is like, there's something going on here.

2:11:26 This is crazy. You're doing it right. You know, they're not doing this just to be jerks. a set of rules, The fucking game's locked. Yes. instead of defining it by the word game, You did it. Go ahead. You know, these two people want to stop wearing makeup and they want to, what do you give Your path is to burn down other people's houses. with their game? What happened to them? Like what, what series of events have placed them in this

2:16:00 And it's, Like when you feel hate for somebody, try to visualize them all the way down to their little baby self and picture what they look like as a baby. And to think about who they were when they were that baby before all of life happened to them to make them into somebody that has now triggered these feelings of anger. And the kid literally grows up, like, with a short temper.

2:17:12 I had a cat that was feral that I raised and he was fucking terrified of everything from When I would get to him and pick him up, he would start purring Well, no, that fucking cat was born are or you know or the rules you know and being able to zoom out and see that makes you feel, I think, I mean, the links between social change and gameful thinking.

2:19:46 And then I've had, I had a cop on, Michael Wood, who was a Baltimore, retired Baltimore And even the hardliners are dropping. Neither were their parents. So it's okay. You got to catch a flight. Really, really appreciate it. Awesome time.