Joe Rogan Experience #729 — Jocko Willink Transcript

Transcript

0:00 All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are here and I'm here with Jocko Willink of Extreme I'm like, that guy probably knows some shit or he's seen some shit. because I like feeling like a lazy fuck whenever I look at your social media posts and you have that talk a whole bunch without saying anything. So I figured that one's pretty cool. And guys would have all these requests and all these things.

2:42 Absolutely. bullshitter i mean this is what i do i bullshit i talk you know fill a lot of hours of just because I think what you have to say, and especially what you had to say in the Tim but you, you know, you can have all these guys that write these, Ramadi, Iraq. It was the worst place in the world at the time. And I knew that. And I felt like my whole life had sort of been preparing me to be there in that position,

6:37 to kill you and you're trying to kill them. And that's just the ultimate test. And not that it's a great test or a test about with my friend Duncan we were we were going over this and we essentially came to the conclusion that the history of the human race is a history of history has been trying to keep people from fucking with us and trying to take

8:36 and when you read about that, and when people read these books or watch these movies, and been involved in combat, one of the craziest aspects of it is many want to be back there. There's an intensity there but But having so much pressure and so much at stake, when it goes away, it definitely leaves a hollow, empty space inside. And losing friends and thinking that you could have done something differently and maybe someone would still be here that's that's a completely different kind of thing

12:00 a part of them. And so they, they, we all fought very hard for the city of Ramadi. little girls and little boys. It was just disgusting. And so we went in there and fought wanted us to be there and wanted us to defeat the insurgents that were terrorizing them. And we did. And they were joyous about that. Now, as crazy as that sounds, like people want to say we're not in the building.

15:01 And guess what the two, you know, what are the two economic superpowers behind America? believe in what you're doing. And again, when you're number one and every, every soldier or that were foreign fighters that want to kill everyone in America. They hate us. They want started over there, it became a holy war. Yes. And it's a holy war, but it's interesting because

18:19 And that and even if you don't believe it's greatest country on Earth and even if you see it for all the all that's false that it Has you appreciate the fact that in this country you have freedom and so you can kind of fight for that no matter But it's definitely going to take quite a Had a good business going on for a while. not concerned about your safety, what is there left to be patriotic when you don't understand

21:05 You signed up like long before you into that? You grew up in New England? Like, where did you develop this sense of patriotism? America's got all kinds of faults. Like there was no like event in your life. you know, And they just give it all to you and they say, get after it. I think that's one of the things that's so romantic in the public's eye about the idea of the SEALs or Green Berets or Rangers,

24:50 you're not a pussy. Just exactly. Yeah. And here you are 44 years old. You're still getting up at every day. And in the regular SEAL teams, you're, you know, you're wearing a pair of shorts, and you know, go out, have a beer. We'd get done Saturday. We'd still go to work Sunday. We'd We used to train really really hard because there was an unknown element

27:34 you were going to war you were gonna be ready you you were you were gonna make sure that you had all That's the baseline. But it's not structured. sense right so how do you know like when to stay in shape or what to do yeah you're you're you're because he was training some SWAT guys up in L.A. So you're not going to crush yourself so hard that you're incapacitated.

29:54 So when you're deployed, What about martial arts training? So it depends on who they're working for. Do you talk them through it while you're doing it? to train with people that aren't as good as you and just constantly drill finishes over and over was not like the SEAL training we see with the guys with the logs carrying those around or boats. and we do crazy simulated combat on these guys that is awesome i mean it's it's devastating

33:03 and wrong. And my point in this is that sometimes, many times, especially in the beginning, when the What an incredible tool to learn how to organize and to stay together and work together as a team you can't do that so the first thing that happened was simunition and that's you know they basically You win every single time. Just lay in paint into you as you go in you're stupid if you go run into that room

36:01 cannot take me down. And he said, well, what do you mean and he said no I once I settle my chi we need to watch out for well the the belief is based on you know being taught it by people who the basic principles of combat are not these super crazy complex things. And we'll continue to do that, And the time when we started using simunition and the, and the lasers, the better products,

38:49 The one that we used was called Ditz and it was made by Saab. training scar because you aren't used to doing that. You see what I'm saying? So if, like I said, if all I do is train to grab your eyes and poke your throat or whatever pressure point type attack, then that means that I'm better prepared for a street conflict. of truth to the fact that if if you never think about what it's like to be

41:41 effective in, in teaching you what real combat is going is gonna be like What was it like the first time you were deployed and when was that? legit job and we had to get it done it was also a time where the the insurgents there wasn't an And it was like a rock star deployment we'd come home at three o'clock in the morning and be done and debrief the operation and get ready to do it the next day we probably

44:33 go like after we had experienced desert storm desert storm which was just this overwhelming what time during the deployment it was. And we were an assault force. We were like, we jokingly Instead of going to Baghdad and really doing more Baghdad SWAT operations, And I hung around with a bunch of guys that thought the same damn thing as me. right now instead i'm shooting people yeah yeah no you uh and and and the seal teams and the rangers

48:11 and you're a part of this fraternity, this brotherhood. So you get over there. It was, and then, and then we started conducting operations almost immediately. And the operations were just, just radically different. I mean, the enemy owned the downtown area of Hamadi. They, know ramadi was uh was a iraqi military city as well so there's some of them left over

50:25 occupying Iraq when they went in and took Ramadi. This time we were gone. We'd been gone for You'd see him get evacuated. But it's hard to mentally picture what that's going to be like when you when you're going to go up against guys that are that prepared so this was tactically and as far as like the strategy that was involved to more well trained and more organized in america what we did was kind of go back to our strong

53:36 anymore. We're going to pull back to our bases. We're going to try and support the Iraqis as much in Ramadi by a guy named Colonel Sean McFarland was seize, clear, hold, and build, which means you're going General McFarland and General McFarland came down to Ramadi and implemented the plan there. so so That's it. You can hear these guys that were officers in charge of battalions and companies

57:49 was a seal. The guy behind you was a seal. The guy in front of you, you knew you could trust them. when you go out, the majority of the guys you're going to be with are Iraqi soldiers. This is this is crap. This is garbage. Why would we ever do that? This is the worst battlefield seals have fought on since Vietnam and you want us to go out there with a bunch of a bunch

59:51 So as I sat there and thought about it, I realized, you know, okay, why is the president Let's answer that question. And the answer was us. Here's why we're doing it. We're doing it because if we don't do it, if we don't want to work with Iraqi soldiers. I understand. I understand there's more risk Here's why we're doing it shooting guys in the back, shooting Americans in in the back did you have plans in place

1:02:05 Can't count. Holy shit. Yeah, go four doors down. Mm-hmm That's part of their gig. They call it, uh, I forget what they have a term for it. But when the, when the friendly, allegedly friendly Afghan soldier turns and shoots everyone in the back, It's that's what makes war so complex and confusing is it's not cut and dry and it never is So they're buildings.

1:04:24 key people stationed in them, guns at the windows, looking out constantly. that were maybe 200 or 300 yards away. no doubt about it no doubt about it wow and so how many buildings did you guys wind up taking overall yeah and you know they you know you can look you can google navy seals and find you know 20 and they had real jobs in the real world and wanted to get home to their family. And yet they

1:08:51 And I have pictures of probably about six to nine months after we left, we got pictures that guys sent back to us of they were running road races down the worst, See, I think stories like this get left out of the mainstream I mean it was it was a complete turnaround and again you do you can do that because the people there wanted to be easy to get there.

1:11:13 there was, there was times where we'd kill an insurgent and they would cheer. They would have to do the exact same thing. Absolutely going to be difficult. It's going to be very difficult. That's one of the things that, again, you know, and leadership, leadership is such an important thing. It's such an important thing because it really does change. It changes every variable in a situation and so when you have good leaders you you can win and i don't

1:13:15 ground we got 3 500 troops there this is a and i hate to answer your blunt question with a philosophical answer, but war is very difficult and very tragic and very evil in its own right. And we're not going to kill any civilians. No civilians are going to die and you have to understand that So you have to have the will to kill, looking out for American interests. I know that sounds like taboo language in this day and age,

1:16:51 to 200,000. What would it take to develop that will that you talk of? Do you think that the And they're like, we are coming to kill you. you know, which is Levant, had heard about as an organized thing. People were kissing in the streets. Is there going to be confetti blowing in the main street in a parade? They're aiming it at, you know, disenchanted people all around the world that can cling on to something that will give them some sort of identity.

1:21:03 One of them died three to that was defeated by military force imperial japan was an idea and a religion that was defeated by military force Imperial Japan was an idea and a that had worked in some way with the coalition forces so that We would destroy them. So what steps would you take like what what would you do if you were in a position of power right now?

1:24:33 How many people are you dealing with when you're talking about ISIS? because if you got kids always looking for the easiest way out and going in is a hard decision to make. It's a very hard decision to It's like sort of a wishy-washy attempt in some ways at war. It seems Someday. one can live in anymore because it's been contaminated. It's radioactive now. I mean,

1:28:05 ramping up and that if they have the kind of resources to pull off something like the paris And, you know, now you've thrown Russia into the mix because they took down the Russian airline. as the, as the leaders there we're in the backseat and that's scary. We should be in a leadership position. There's nothing wrong with that. It is not bad to have a benevolent country. And I know people are going to go crazy, but a

1:30:38 I think it's been happening. And I think, you know, I think the current administration is try and think of who the best presidential candidate would be I mean You know, he's a legit black belt. I was reading that just today before we started the podcast. What does that mean? to if you're a rational pragmatic person you're looking at the future you'd have to say well we're

1:34:31 but this is what I've always tried to tell people when they say, you want to be the one who gets to choose whether or not someone gets hurt. I mean, you work out, that when you can tell, you can tell by the some, the way someone carries themselves, what, you know, from the insulated American public? We're evil is completely beyond me Muslims are bad.

1:38:35 Muslims are evil and your evil cult is not going to come into our town in other parts of the world with ISIS, a giant, giant difference. And I think that when people No one's ever called me that. Muslim people we ate with them. We put our lives in their hands and they put their hand their lives in our hands and there. And I don't think anybody does other than people like you that have been over there and

1:41:39 Until you've been in a fistfight you're gonna believe that and so that that's kind of what you're saying Do we need to get spanked? knocked the chick over, ran inside and they said, uh, it was reviewed and gender wasn't an issue. you should probably have a team of fucking assassins surrounding that building at all times. Like in world war two, like you and me, if we were 13 years old, we weren't old enough to serve.

1:43:46 At all. Same thing. of something that was important from a war fighting perspective. So that was kind of, And, you know, my buddy Leif that I was talking about earlier, who was one of the platoon commanders that was with me in Ramadi. So what is the process? you got a group of people, group of individuals, and they're going to be diverse. and efficient manner and

1:48:05 And when we make those stark examples from combat, people go, Oh, oh, I see how we're failing in this too you come and talk to my people about leadership? And those are good. Yes. The most challenging thing about being in combat in a leadership position is not, you know, trying to figure out what the enemy is going to do and trying to, trying to organize a good plan.

1:50:38 And we definitely learned lessons, thing in the world no we were we were humbled by combat we were we were the most extreme ever. And when you have these extreme consequences, obviously when there's a Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of capital because you made a bad decision It's that much pressure. talk to someone and have them go, I did what you told me to do. And this is the result. This is

1:54:34 You should have a podcast. the thing and he just looked up at me and said, you need to do your own podcast. Good for him. Well, I think, you know, great military leaders, whether it's Sung Tzu, The Art of War, whether it's Miyamoto Busashi from The Book of Five Rings, I mean, it's amazing. You're just not gonna get from someone who wasn't there. You're just not gonna get it. You're gonna get these fuzzy

1:58:05 Yeah. Okay, well, I'm going to write a big book about myself. It's a dichotomy because you're saying hey, you got to be humble as a leader the way I was raised. And, and so again, I'm, I'm getting over it. Um, I'm trying to get over it, show. And because of that, you have the ability to educate people and give people this perspective It's all bullshit.

2:01:00 who actually knows what they're talking about. So you understand clearly with no fuzziness at all, what the fuck is going on in the world Private Pyle, get some. And, and what's really nice about is you get this clean slate where they're like, okay, discipline you have as a human, the more freedom you're going to have, which is completely help you with is it helps you get things done and when

2:04:47 That through discipline I get things done. I always tell my I always say that I'm like the right things? That's creativity. Now you throw on top of that. What am I going to do the enemy? All those things all that freedom that you get on stage I used to keep a stack of them in my old studio and I'd hand them out to guests if I thought they needed it.

2:06:59 He calls it resistance. So what show up again tomorrow and tomorrow that dog shit a flower will emerge master at, at countering. So all she had to do was wait and move and she needed creativity and it wasn't there I think it was Cage Warriors. That's what he knocked out Franklin with and he obviously yeah Franklin was outclassed in that fight He would throw a crescent kick an inside crescent kick to your face like what the fuck it was it was part of what made him

2:10:46 and it looks so preposterous while he's doing it that so many guys especially when he first How does he avoid getting hurt because he's not a big guy? I don't want to train with anybody who's 210. No neck problems. I'm like, what are you, 300 fucking pounds? Yeah, but he's definitely lifting too because it like food doesn't go right to your neck his neck

2:13:14 beings you know you'd make like i'll have to soften his foot up with like nine foot locks, then just crank it, crank it, crank it, But Josh's got that old school catch wrestling knowledge too, which is just such a different approach. of saying he's kind of lazy yeah let's just make those noises and not say anything hey you know I haven't trained with Marcelo,

2:15:23 and, I would love to see him just like get completely refocused and make a run at winning ADCC or whatever one more time before he hangs it up. I think it was in China. who kind of like lays back, but I definitely know Jeff and Dean and they're, they got some, they got some, some weird stuff that our normal person's like oh cool I'm gonna get a job at Walmart and then

2:18:59 He'd be like oh yeah a little bit For whatever his body's designed for things yeah, and you see that with everybody because everyone's got people that are good at putting all those things together which i always thought fedor was very striking situation and his well-roundedness was one of the things She got beat by it's, It's awful. I did this and I will have to change things if I'm gonna beat her and

2:22:42 is called extreme ownership that that's that's literally the families and gentlemen right there situations and you talk to one of the, let's say, command before he left and he screwed up and my platoon chief wasn't heads up about where our casualties were being taken and my LPO No, they go, hey, boss, you know what? You blame each other. It's one of the most important things in getting good at anything is recognizing when you're not good.

2:25:52 And it definitely will. But to look at people who are better than you I was going to say, I mean, ego drives, you know, you to be successful, me to be successful. play video games and turn into a yeah yeah well there there's yeah bodybuilding is the best example of that right they have 22 inch arms and they want to have thighs that are so big I'm always like all right go eat two steaks and take two days off

2:28:58 When it comes to strength and conditioning and what he calls physical culture and the culture of you know, taking care of your body Yeah. And, you know, got divorced and gave up the gym. He enjoys training. He's still doing jiu-jitsu to this day, and he teaches a course And they don't notice, they don't know to say no to that 21 year old juiced up Marine.

2:31:32 There used to be this giant German dude I don't even know how many He just earned his blue belt. He's 59. Yeah, that's awesome. Which it's amazing And then I just did his TV show. and all these different I'm like this is amazing I can't believe like you what a I mean, I just I just have to watch it. Yeah. And I think it's because there's such a cerebral

2:34:30 You've never seen anything like it. at his biggest is probably like 230 maybe 230 maybe. And to your point, I was in Japan. Because Sap dropped him on his head. His neck essentially never recovered after that fight. But then again, he went and fought Hong Man Choi, who's a giant guy too. And most people would have been done then. Yeah. Incredible. And my son asked me, hey, dad, is there really such a thing as superpowers?

2:37:56 You could see the arm bars a mile away. fuck i need like perfect placement of the shin the knee the pressure the hips everything's in place I got in early. Royce. That was going to win. The infamous garage. It was like the epicenter of j knew jujitsu. The garage, the infamous garage. I mean, like, okay, you attack me and just choked us all out. I'm like like okay you you attack me and just chokes on like okay I'll listen to whatever this guy's saying so so he

2:40:17 A lot of people did. And now I'm going to learn all I can learn about Muay Thai. And I know that humility is something that you have to keep yourself in check because again, I got asked And you're going to be left in the dark. you're supposed to be constantly uncomfortable yeah and then in these little victories that you Like now like when you were 25 you were like, I'm pretty good to go.

2:43:55 next three years, five years. I'm going to look at myself at 44 and go, yeah, you see how stupid Like striking. The most that he can get out of it, that stays the same. an activity that you're participating in voluntarily in America at 530 on a Tuesday, them, Hey, listen, just go out there, have fun. It's going to be fun. You know, just go out there

2:46:49 Well, what does basketball escalate into? you know in combat sport again you know barring combat itself yeah well it's also why the dorks What you're doing with your fat face, like shoving cheeseburgers down your mug, We just need to go kill everyone. that that it makes people look at ufc, oh my God, how could that happen? Do you hug them? said about them. And God bless those folks out there on the wire. Yes, sir. And with that,

2:50:31 Leif? And what is it on? He's gonna, see? after the podcast, so go out and buy this