Joe Rogan Experience #782 — Rick Doblin Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the call is that okay is that comfortable yeah okay yeah and actually i was just um yesterday yesterday and today with Ralph Metzner, when it comes to the the dialogue of psychedelics because from an outsider this is how i always view Because there's not a lot of people that – that's one of the weird things about psychedelics. So people don't really know who in society has had these influences.

3:10 Oh, good Lord. Well, we're in these camps, you know, we have these camps, the do's and don'ts. Actually, tomorrow is the 30th year that I started MAPS in 1986. There's with conversations about death with dinner and drugs with dinner even. And so people can write in and just say psychedelics matter to me because or you know i i'm more hopeful or i'm

5:50 and that people have made lives out of them, being really honest about their experiences whether you're a right wing or a left wing, And you lock their, like, people. Says who? Health, about marijuana and cannabinoids. you're not going to do a whole lot of thinking. Like you shouldn't say, you know, I'm just going to be high from the moment I wake up

8:49 And I enjoyed it. while I was stoned. Isn't that hilarious? They say that it's one of the things about the NBA. but there's a video of me doing an impression of him. You have a better sense of where the ball's going. There was just... Well, that's probably why you played good because you were never sure and you stayed on the edge. Like you're more like,

11:59 part that we have to really be the experts on the risks as well as the benefits. Are you sure? your ability to handle being really high like you your anxiety takes hold of you because you're like, oh, my God. I had to tap out. But for someone who's not really that experienced at it, man, especially in a car, it's not a good idea. because a lot of those BMX dudes, they could do that shit drunk too.

14:27 Yeah, just enjoying the movement. score just play just keep playing who won i don't know i i think this idea though of science and the Thank you. people that have seen some stuff there's some people that wrote affidavits other than that And that's what I've tried to look at. It gives their life a bit more meaning. raw numbers of people in this country and then you look at the ufo stories and go how many of

17:51 If we could just go from planet to planet as dumb as we are now if we could just go from planet to planet and do in the jungle they have all this western clothing you're like wow it's weird. You see these people in the jungle and they have all this Western clothing. You're like, wow, it's so weird. was uh using because it seemed to help him get stronger and it was mdma and so some

19:34 No. Oh, wow. english at all and there was this like in the Western movies, there was a trail of dust coming in. For them to show their 17-year-old, who was torn between the different cultures, that something about our culture, we wanted what they had. And that's when I started figuring out that even out in the reservation And I think people are getting unsettled because things they had thought were true and rigid

22:22 I didn't know that existed. There's something to their accent that just, I guess it's like we're programmed to think of Native Americans as like spiritual and authentic. genre because it it wasn't just that it that there were cool action movies, but it western shit was going on and for us it it almost like hearkens to a time right before we fucked up the country

24:45 and for so long without any European influence. but they fought amongst each other so much. Yeah. But they didn't know these other people that were exactly like them that were 100 miles away. This is a terrible problem. so they can speak to each other, people that speak different languages. We're way close to people with different skin or different cultures. And to be able to see that that is who we really are and that acting from that and trying to work on cooperative solutions.

28:17 I mean, people are going after people for cooking Mexican food that aren't Mexican. It's a different thing in a lot of ways. and then pushing the line further back. Justin Bieber adds fuel to the That's just style. Well, then it becomes offensive. I think if someone has something that's sacred, Okay, that's a kid who likes to wear his hair like that.

31:20 If a white kid with dreadlocks is going to, Yeah, work avoidance. Well, there's a class in wacky behavior because they also are addicted to cigarettes and maybe they drink too much. Oh, really? and there's lots at stake. And then you sit down and you stare at that computer screen or you stare at the notebook and you do the writing that you were really trying to put off.

34:10 But it's so nothing. should I just work through with the other professors I mean, Ari Shaffir has this little piece of paper that he has glued or taped to his laptop. I go, did you read this again? Because I'm thinking about all the different words and ways. Do you know what Write Room is? else i can't fuck off i can't you know i just shut the wi-fi off and ram that's for me the best way

37:16 So you have like index cards And I learned that from watching sitcom writers. Who started using it? Then I extract stand-up out of it, you know. 140 text characters those 140 characters i think that's good because it makes you economize and it the news and then someone will have the perfectly timed, ridiculous tweet. Well, you guys use, Maps uses it.

40:47 Yes, Bryce. and then to FDA about going to the next step, about going from exploratory studies to studies that if they work, Because it's assisted psychotherapy, like how much of an impact specifically can you attribute to the drug? Right. sample size calculations that help you figure out on the basis of all these assumptions, That's your problem. shit yeah well the consequences if it works is that then we can start setting up psychedelic psychotherapy clinics for MDMA for PTSD.

44:46 The human suffering, too, the money. And that's a lot of people. improvement. And how that's evaluated is, fortunately for us, there is a independent and they know how to administer this. And they're randomly assigned to what we think will be about and which isn't because your biases it's a fundamental problem of this research and that's why these higher dose do better than the people that get the lower dose. And the people, patients,

49:13 Three times, three to five weeks apart. And it's a three and a half month therapy process of weekly psychotherapy. So the emphasis is on the psychotherapy, the preparation, Who's auditing all this footage? And this is how they're – it's poetry. these rich symbols um but then they went so they did some, that were beautiful and filled with these rich symbols.

51:49 And we're supporting this emergence. and can change how memories are stored. So we're starting to get... so with the mdma you can help people through this way of reducing the fear response their Then you reconsolidate the memory. Let me tell you Bob's story. So you can, with MDMA, you can somehow or another change what that memory is. and then because you're feeling peaceful people remember even better you know what you guys should

55:56 because of those moments, but it would be nice if you had a full handle on how it makes you feel. yeah it it doesn't make you feel like you're losing control right it makes it so that you feel a subtle shift of openness to self-acceptance and self-love. Have they ever done that with athletes? Right. tension right is or it's tense because of parts of your brain and so that the way in which you can

58:12 And so you can do work within a period of minutes sometimes or hours of seeing a shift any more and he'd had what he needed. Well, kudos. Yeah. And we You've dropped out. Yeah, that's, come on. Once you have enrolled somebody, that's the more conservative. So actually, Tony's scores of massive reduction in PTSD They don't exist anymore. I'm saying is there's a vibe that you get when you're communicating on ecstasy.

1:02:34 where we're going to give two people MDMA a DMT study. And ever since then, now for the past 26 years, it's only been one person getting MDMA or psilocybin or LSD or anything at a time. So this is the first time that we've been able to And conjoint means couples. You can get over stuck arguments. those things. It could be anxiety disorder or PTSD or depression.

1:05:24 It's obvious, like, there's a condition and a solution to that condition. unless you have like a serious dental disorder and you really need to clean the holes, you know, like you have like some sort of a horrible root canal that's about to happen. It's the idea that we're seeing that MDMA is like a general tool. I don't want to know. 1985, I had a kilogram made.

1:07:51 And this was... Absolutely not. No, but it was. It's infuriating that it's taken this long for people to recognize what other people have said. temperature controls, But they dance a lot too. you know, toothpaste and teeth. I mean, all the, like when they make a contract, they write in coffee breaks. People tend not to have bad trips. And I think it's super important to recognize when you're looking at all these numbers and statistics that there is a certain percentage of these people in this world that are helpless.

1:12:34 You'd have to bring it up. So is driving race cars. That's fun, too. Do you think people ski more or take ecstasy more? take anonymous samples of drugs. Amphetamines, they're caffeine. Because there's the stimulant aspect and people stay up. Yeah. Aspirin. Let's make them all out of rubber. have all sorts of physical problems. Yeah, but the problem is there's not a strict prohibition on dangerous things so the

1:16:14 about the origins of the drug war? and people are looking at what Ehrlichman said, and it seems intuitively true. You've got cocaine and all these things that are so different. I don't think describing things, oh, you do drugs. Our brains are a drug factory. But the problem is labeling them all drugs. for blocking this drug thalidomide. It was the epitome of the bad drug.

1:19:31 I've tried it. with me that he and his medical friends did meth because they were under these ridiculous there's a mood too yeah yeah elevated yeah yeah there's so mdma is methylene dioxin methamphetamine And one was, it was like methamphetamine to mescaline. culmination of methamphetamine and mescaline that produced a molecule that does something I think, over a process of once the drugs are approved. And

1:24:10 Wow. of timing that Albert Hoffman, who invented LSD, first off created it in 38 and then it's really good. You know, if it's plant medicine. It's not as simple as it's not natural. I thought you said you had a gang of it. We have 960 grams, but it's not GMP medical. researching we would research for youtube we would like to give it there but the mostly crocodile

1:27:11 You've got like a bucket of this stuff laying around. did I say the right word? One of the things that he didn't have He took some aluminum foil and used it in the process. I'm sure it was really. Aluminum is like, we think of aluminum as being frying pans. It's like one of the most common metals. What does it do? and shit you were taking? Dude, sit down and you got to tell me what are you doing?

1:29:47 So you have to take it from – every initial ingredient has to be verified at the source, weighed out, documented, and then you make it, and then it's medical grade. Is this a plug for a party? Thank you. Yes, I think. Yeah. Columbus is supposed to be a piece of shit, right? Yes, yes, I think. but Columbus as a person, if you Google him, And you realize these were the people that everybody was worried about.

1:32:17 Which story is that? Well, the story that I've written, actually, be honest with us. A little? blown off course in a hurricane, land in around Tampa, Florida. And of this charting so this is the first meeting of the black, white, and red races in much of North America. The person says they're better. This was a long time ago. They didn't want it. They had the allegiance of all of these Indians.

1:36:38 Cabeza de Vaca went and was taken as prisoner back and he had to write this the support they had and then well the four that they didn't kill before that That's not a good strategy. to become fucking I think is the translation of it. Ken Burns More areas than other people did without killing any Indians. getting attacked, attacking people, being at war,

1:40:17 Yes, traders. He stayed in Mexico. more clumsy i like uh first nation that's like what the canadians use i like that first nations Is that cultural appropriation or no? I mean, I see that with our MDMA. when they have in their territories. but a lot of people work in the military or do stuff with the federal government. Remember that? Right right Yeah

1:44:22 Santa Fe this morning affirming the union de vegetal, the union of the plants. king solomon really and so there's? And so it is a religion. but in kind of shamanistic or personal growth or more or kind of little modified or even in these services. It just didn't get appealed to the Supreme Court by the prosecutors. So they're locked down. So cultural appropriation, but cultural integration.

1:47:50 busy getting high they want to keep it on the dl no no no they're hide no no they trip out and lay Yeah. There's a lot of weird stuff in religion. And as soon as you start saying that one person can't do their weird stuff, they go, okay, what kind of weird stuff do you got exemptions for? it's like, you guys have blinders on, okay? He's like they do really strong ayahuasca

1:50:16 and all love on the planet. Can other people see it too? your imagination. Exactly. And then there's a way to transcend that and see something even deeper and deeper and that we have these filters. then when you add the pharmacology, And you bring it back to studies and science and data and present a paper. this ultimate truth. Well, there's no way to know. And that's not just humility. That's just a fact.

1:55:32 that's what we're looking at. We're looking at the outcomes. So I think that that's the Well, I remember from my bar mitzvah where I was like the very next day. Maybe a lot of people got bar mitzvahed that day. Maybe God's like aliens. So if our laws are designed to protect people, we should do it scientifically. A little. it depends on what we do about the benefit side of the equation it's it's not but no but it doesn't

1:58:52 well i think i think you can have that i want you to be free i want to be free to do what i feel i People can make choices about risk in different ways. Right. There has to be a lot of protection. Memories of their own failures. stack up and you define yourself by those failures. And it becomes really hard to move forward. It becomes really hard for

2:01:40 It changes the direction. And MDMA therapy or any sort of a psychedelic experience that's boundary dissolving and ego dissolving, And I think that's why MDMA is one of the most popular illegal drugs in the world. And it's a double-blind, crossover, placebo-controlled study, like you're gonna have a bad trip for the most part although some of the veterans have said you know i don't know why they call this ecstasy why do you say that because

2:04:36 It's like you really can't imagine what their experiences are. They have this thing in July. Yeah, well, they're going to say no. No medicinal value. And heroin. But I mean, the psych... But the way the schedules are set up, there has to be a currently accepted medical use. And the data is not there. And you So there's no established medical benefits of marijuana that have been proven in any scientific way?

2:07:56 So there are people working with marijuana extracts in different non-smoking delivery systems going through the system. other medicines. But there is no effort right now. We're starting, six years ago, hundreds, thousands of people saying that it's helpful in different ways. And it's going to be a definitive thing. with the same study design, but with their marijuana, and they're going to vaporize,

2:11:21 get the study even started. The study will be three years. Then we'll learn from it, and we'd probably need to do another three, four-year study, a phase three, And so the University of Mississippi, Professor El-Soli is now in charge. And we won a DEA administrative law judge lawsuit. There has to be an adequate and uninterrupted supply produced under adequately competitive

2:13:53 They've not been focused on making these things into medicines. It can't be marketed. something like that. Like there's so many drugs that have gone through clinical trials and wind They don't get it covered by insurance. legalized for medicine. Right. So to go through the FDA process, then insurance companies, And so there's the likelihood that once we make it into an FDA-approved medicine,

2:17:35 with with psychedelics i mean part of it is also resources that you know do we have the resources The advisory committee recommended that human research be resumed, and the FDA adopted that, If you go into the scientific literature and Medline and you put in MDMA or ecstasy, there's over 5,000 papers. You couldn't even do your own funded study with marijuana through the FDA because you couldn't get the marijuana.

2:20:36 We're planning to resubmit an application from Professor Craker. access. And so we're not saying wait for the science to... Well, do you have any fear with That's why I think I was so motivated to get involved with MDMA, because I learned about MDMA in 1982 when it was an underground psychedelic psychotherapy tool under the code But because it had this dual life, one has this

2:22:56 Well, it's just amazing how long it's taken. strong need for new treatments for PTSD. I mean, they don't necessarily are saying anything about that you present to the patients in the study and that you tell the doctors. And the people at the FDA thought that we were doing it fairly in a time when it was being distorted in all these you really look at what that is yeah okay now

2:25:59 are you, by treating people, Then I think that's more likely to eliminate war or lessen war or at least mitigate it And this is a tool for those things. It's like a real wake-up call to any holes you might have in your game. Yeah. You know, you're a German therapist and they come to you would you treat the concentration camp Right. in the most efficient manner, you want to look at it in the argument, if you want to look at our civilization in the most efficient manner,

2:30:53 And I'm saying, I don't. yeah yeah yeah and actually torsten has written this terrific paper about how orgasms, Settle down. Did it once, two pills, super powerful stuff. If you're trying to have this experience, this loving experience, and then kind of bring, appropriate some of that into your daily life, learn and integrate it, then the very next day is one of the most important parts because you're still halfway in, halfway out.

2:33:21 It's Rick. We gotta wrap this up man Yes Well. That's what. a base of evidence and a long pattern since 1992 of the precedents at the FDA that I think we could It was awesome. don't say it. It starts from 5 to 11. Much appreciated.