Joe Rogan Experience #842 — Chris Kresser Transcript

Transcript

0:00 No? Three, two, one. I always wonder what you base your countdown on, Jamie. paleo and lifestyle expert. As soon as you have that word paleo, people go, fuck serious baggage it's true i mean every day i think about oh i kind of wish i people recognize it. It's one word that points at a whole way of thinking. I could have called it really pointing at and evaluate it on that basis. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And also

3:11 forgetting the other two, but it's all crap. and some starchy plants. So so, so those are the two extremes if we bracket it. And then You know, if they were able to slaughter an animal, they would have done that it goes straight for the organs. But did they eat the muscle meats at all? for the last 10 000 years and we can learn a lot by studying those groups and that's a pretty

6:10 So just whatever was edible. And when their diet or lifestyle gets too far from what they evolved for, but there's not like sort of backing up of the process to find out, probably feel less pain, but you could also just take your shoe off and dump out the rock. And so what's the solution there? Another drug that increases your libido, you get Viagra,

9:36 And there's so much momentum when you have a big industry like that. Absolutely. And they statin drug sales to grow, they need to expand beyond that population and start, you know, the needle, does it? Yeah. It's so much more complex than that. What is the cause of like, knew this at one time. Disrupted gut microbiome and leaky gut, which I know you've talked about

12:35 a drug that they never needed to take in the first place. If we retest and they're still, That has some sort of an effect on it as well, right? to understand. Like, if you think of disease as a spectrum where, you know, the far end is death restore sight to the blind and do these incredible things, but they're all at that far end of the Yeah, it just seems logical. I mean, it seems that that should be an approach that everyone should consider when you're looking at the broad spectrum of illnesses and diseases and injuries and all those different factors that are involved in making someone ill, that this is what you're saying seems so common sense, but it's not common at all. Not common at all. It does seem common sense to me.

16:24 you know, the way it really should work is if you go into your doctor and you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure, So if you're under a lot of stress, that's causing hormonal changes in your body. for a lot of these procedures. They just don't yet see functional medicine, which is what we're talking about right here, as something that could potentially save them a lot of money.

19:00 hey, people are having way more access to information about health than ever before, You have a line of patients waiting to get into your office. and are constantly eating crap and not exercising? most doctors who are working in an HMO type of setting prescribing statins to a patient who has a total we're influenced by the system that we are a part of. And so, you know, you get this whole culture,

22:40 And the risk in doing this is exactly what we're talking about now. I thought New Zealand was a little more on the ball. And they are well aware of how, you know, they study how to do this. And we have a responsibility these are hardwired evolutionary mechanisms. We were, we're, We're hardwired to seek out novelty, variety, when we were living in a Paleolithic type of an environment,

26:18 All over the world, too, now. the cognitive center of our brain where we can rationally think about it. I mean, you mentioned Yeah. the same. I don't think we even experience those cravings in the same way. And also when you cure that up or when you, I've really gotten into, And I think that really concentrating on probiotics has boosted my immune system.

30:31 like reached a tipping point. And then also my, my gut biome, I believe, I mean, I'm just guessing So in other words, the health of our gut and our gut microbiome directly influences brain I don't know if you experience that now since you perform so much. only been in the last, you know, 20, 30 years that the research has really come around to, So this is where the direction of science has been heading.

33:47 We know there are examples in nature of bacteria and microorganisms changing the behavior of their host in order to propagate their own survival. And those are all absolutely correct. But we're just a heightened state of animal life. So, you know, 20 or 30 years ago, if you were at like a medical conference and you used the term leaky gut, you would have been laughed out of the room.

36:16 But if you have a tube that's going all the way through your body, It's supposed to let nutrients that we need in but keep toxins and other wastes out. So the gut is primarily a barrier. We wouldn't be able to absorb nutrients. And that's why we develop food allergies or food intolerances. it's bacterial endotoxins that are getting in there that shouldn't be. Leaky gut leads to this chronic low-grade inflammation. And basically all modern

39:50 but I don't think they necessarily understand. So there was this great paper published a few years ago by a professor from New Zealand, actually. with no cells anymore. And what that means is with cellular carbohydrates, our body has to of processed and refined sugars that are highly accessible to us and also to our gut bacteria we and then we found out like fairly recently within the last few decades that the

43:45 lost knowledge at this point in a lot of ways, but we're recovering it in a different way. Like we're using modern scientific tools to validate or clarify ancient wisdom that's been around for to sort of explain unequivocally Well, that makes sense. so that's where i step in um how's that possible doesn't make any sense the universe is infinite And I think it's worth pointing out that there are some real problems

46:20 Explain that. thing there where you, you know, that if, if your results are negative and don't support that's the problem, researchers were not required or pharmaceutical companies were not required to publish negative fraud. So there was a pretty big study published in JAMA a little while back by- is effective are done the way they should be. And that, you know, there's no falsification of

49:50 And the researcher ended up spending six years in jail. The FDA doesn't require companies, pharmaceutical companies to publish that data. And because they I just don't understand why they would cover up the fact that a guy was already sick. Like, wouldn't you think that there would be the opposite? But even though the FDA busted this group in China,

52:32 that's not actually being reported and translating into clinical decisions that doctors are making. were warned didn't get any more of the errors than the scientists that weren't warned in advance. Replicating findings is really important in the scientific method, too. And they were only able to do that in 35% of cases. And whole fields of scientific research are spawned on a study that

55:54 to validate all these different things? It's just not as cool. And another one is just how long studies are done for. Like omega-3 fats, we've all heard about that these are good for us and Really? things and are just doing the intervention and to do everything that needs to be done is incredibly But then over the course of maybe three, four, five years or so, they started having real issues.

58:31 In terms of that, because most people who switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet, you're going to see some instant benefits because of the fact that you have much more nutrient going to see some long-term benefits but one of the things that i've been reading is about people to make up for the nutritional deficiencies of your diet. There's a guy that says there's no way that we are herbivores.

59:58 There's some strange arguments out there. Fly planes, make movies, call each other on the phone and tell each other how awesome milk is. nutrients that are available in its environment to its maximal advantage is going to survive and cooking makes the nutrients in meat more bioavailable, extract and harvest much more nutrient-dense foods from animals, fats, and other nutrients in the

1:03:07 We can talk about that, too. but they're not doing blood lipid profiles. You should do whatever you want to do. I don't spend my time doing that. because they're actually quite different. And at least in my experience, there are very few that actually do it right. a couple of times. And so certainly it works for some people, but there are a lot of factors that

1:06:30 function, et cetera. And primarily you get them by eating fish. There are no sources of those like 2% to 5%. So you have to be chugging tablespoons of flax oil in order to get as much It basically makes sure that calcium gets in Kefir and sauerkraut and kimchi have K2 in it. I'm saying kefir from now on. Just because I want to get a little bit onto this track of what you were describing about fish oil and the conversion and the difference between flaxseed oil.

1:09:38 They have selenium. of the average algae supplement in order to meet your DHA needs. That's a big issue. And what's the source of a B12 supplement? But definitely if a vegan, I would recommend supplementing with B12 different issues, right? It's a factor in the production of muscle. Yeah. Production of all when they're actually just B12 deficient. So it's a really important nutrient.

1:12:51 What's the difference? trying to get back to health. And what did you get sick from? 10 years? about the gut and the microbiome compared to what we macrobiotic vegan and then raw food vegan. I've been there, done that. And so I'm completely where they open and close that they lack pain because we know that some plants, for example, when they recognize that they're being eaten by a caterpillar, they secrete toxins to protect themselves.

1:17:54 which is there's no system of food production but I have friends that, I have pound of meat because as you said one cow could can you know No, we can talk about that too. and her babies in the nest die of starvation because their mother is not able to on the other hand, of course, it's impossible to deny the real issues with factory farming, And this is, I mean, interestingly enough,

1:22:07 I'm lucky that where I live that that's accessible. And we need to consider the whole cycle. and local watershed systems. and they're using it to grow alfalfa or something that people eat or soybeans or something along those lines, And so that's where they started adding nitrogen from the Haber method, you know, into soil. got into the well system and a bunch of people in his community like a huge amount got cancer right

1:27:09 Muscle meats, organ meats, and shellfish are the two most nutrient-dense classes of foods. I think that would be a healthier approach than someone who's just eating lean muscle meat. as well and someone was trying to say to me, well, livers process toxins. Grass-fed butter. Pesticides, chemicals, antibiotic residue. I mean, the liver is more nutrient dense anyways. But pasture-raised animal fats have a lot more nutrients than

1:30:42 The omega-3 is higher because the grass probably has more alpha-linolenic a function of the adaptation And that conversion is as low as three to 5%. And some people, in fact, But the retinol is only really present in organ meats and pasture-raised fats. Liver and onions is a very famous dish. fat that would prevent us from eating them. Now, what would be the difference in terms of the

1:33:59 plants and the mycelium in the soil and all of the different fungus in the soil that also these plants. Yeah, I would say that that's a really good option. for the entire week oh wow just one time one time yeah oysters and same with iron i think if i'm compared to some other predator species of fish I think, in general, cooking makes the nutrients in meat and animal products more bioavailable rather than less.

1:37:32 Yeah. being killed in the, you know, in the production of these plant foods? It's a real question. And I know the argument is like like there's an argument about intentionality and whether, you know, like if I intended to kill this animal to eat it is different than if you didn't intend to eat it. And by the way, fawns, too. Yeah. Yeah, there's another interesting question here too,

1:40:04 or even contemporary people living in, let's say, in Afghanistan, and all they have is a goat, you know, or a poor family in India who has access to a backyard cow. And so that you can choose to contribute less to suffering, I think that would be borne out. I think there is, you can say we have this, because we have that privilege, we have the imperative not to cause more suffering.

1:42:33 Yeah. better than the average person. well, why does that person, that person does a vegan diet and he's pretty healthy, you know, like my friend Brian, his mother, if she eats a Brazil nut, she's dead. When we come from different parts of the world, our ancestors came from different parts of you know, pre-diabetic, um, you know, not doing really any physical activity. And then you take someone like Michael

1:45:44 fat diet. Then the next craze is low carb. Everyone should, you know, the books on everyone should be on a low-fat diet. Then the next craze is low-carb. is just unbelievably grueling yeah i read this thing about him eating like several pizzas at On the one hand, Phelps would probably be better off choosing a different calorie source than pizzas, arguably.

1:47:14 Keep on doing whatever you're doing. And eating really nutrient dense vegetables And so no one even wants to look at the possibility of it being physically beneficial. One thing I want to go back to was your talk about talking about fish oil, like the long-term negative aspects of consuming fish oil. start doing research and they find that there is an inverse association between omega-3 fat

1:49:46 and meta-analysis of longer term studies, they find that the benefits of fish oil have probably some recent studies have found that the Inuit have certain genetic adaptations that allow them Well, an increase in cardiovascular disease risk in some cases, an increase in some inflammatory markers. Whereas polyunsaturated fats are lacking in hydrogen what I advise my patients is, you know, just eat fish. And if for some reason you can't eat fish

1:54:05 of your body. That's less of an issue because storage, you know, people know this, the producers Olives, olive oil has some. Avocados has some polyunsaturated fats, omega-6s. Wow. I mean, people would have you take a tablespoon of cod liver oil. It's also high in vitamin D, which a lot of people are deficient in. And it's just not true. and they go to a saturated fats consumption of animal products bad cholesterol bad so this is

1:57:53 heart attack because blood can't get through to the heart and it causes an ischemic event, Yeah, this is the time where saturated fat was seen as harmful. And so they reviewed 10 studies, and they found that only one supported this notion. I mean, I guess it depends on whether you think those researchers were trying to get a particular outcome Let's just see if people who eat more fat and cholesterol actually have more heart attacks.

2:00:54 They're called hyper-responders, and that may be genetic. Is it possible that, like what we were talking about before, long-term studies would reveal more because we were talking about certain nutrients when you eliminate them from the diet, it takes a long time to find the effect? Or what we were talking about with fish oil, that maybe if a long-term study showed increase in dietary cholesterol, you could see negative effects?

2:02:42 every day in my practice. But their total cholesterol goes up. And it was created, I think, by the drug companies to make it seem very simple. Like, you know, good cholesterol, good. Bad cholesterol, bad. And the cars on the highway are the lipoproteins. They're essentially measuring the passengers in the cars, like how much cholesterol is inside of

2:05:17 eventually leads to heart disease. So it's literally like volume? But LDL versus HDL. or the two most, would be LDL particle number and another lipoprotein called in isolation. You know, it's our, it's once again, we have to look at our whole health, you know, you would expect from a statin. Yeah. So this again, this is another one of those things. It's way more nuanced than

2:08:49 Right. Lost 30 pounds. body because we need So your LDL particle will go down. the bloodstream, like lipopolysaccharide, for example, LDL particles will be manufactured to heart disease. Yeah, it's one of those things that it's so oversimplified in the way people Rob Wolf and so many different people that are experts in nutrition and the way the body processes nutrients.

2:13:36 little you learn that when the bonfire of understanding increases, it illuminates the Yes. And they'll go on about it. average person doesn't have access to the full text, but anyone can go to pubmed.gov that was my generation, like that, you know, pasta and carb loading they're seeing patients 30, 40 hours a week. It's based often on research that's decades old.

2:17:14 Okay, that's, you know, I would argue that that's a step above. that that would solve like 80% of people's problems. If you're already doing that or other healthcare professionals in the program now. And you can go to these websites and look for practitioners that practice functional medicine. B12 levels. effective and it's going to be way longer lasting. And I think I can say from my own personal experience from someone who's changed their diet and eliminated almost all sugar in terms of like

2:21:33 same way. It just, it makes a big difference in that overall quality of life difference when you feel good versus when you feel crappy. And there's a kind of normalization of that that happens in our culture. And I think this has been a great conversation. on iTunes. And then for any clinicians that are interested in learning more about this approach

2:24:18 little fuck. He'll be here tomorrow.