Joe Rogan Experience #946 — Dennis McKenna Transcript

Transcript

0:00 It just seems the problem with the marijuana is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Just relax. You'll have to learn how to use it. It's important to be in touch with that. the idea of, okay, let's find your center, go back to baseline, lay off the sauce, whatever it is even have to be a substance. They activate those pleasure circuits, you know, in the brain, mediated mainly through dopamine.

3:30 All of these things, it doesn't have to be substances because they all hit those same circuits, you know, except the psychedelics, which don't work on that reward circuitry. Yeah, that's quite true. And if people, you know, the way to use psychedelics is, there are many ways to use it, but basically use it thoughtfully. And for whatever, you know, whatever spin you put on it, is it spiritual?

5:12 The medicine is the teacher, right? psyche. you know, I just do wheatgrass and I run hills and stuff. I'm like, okay, you could do that too. I mean, I've said this many, many times that, you know, It's about teaching people how to use drugs if they choose to, right? Drugs are simply compounds with a certain pharmacology. Fentanyl's bad enough. And they use it to cut heroin because it's so strong.

10:34 that in Thailand, traditional areas, it's often used to get off of heroin. So it's potentially part of the solution not part of the problem it's uh you know it's relatively I mean, methadone is not the best way, but something that people could substitute and then gradually taper off. It's easy. Just unique pharmacology. Absolutely. that's not going to happen. And is there an LD50 for this stuff?

13:41 That's about 100 times stronger than morphine. It's very good for people who want to get off that shit. but they could go on kratom and gradually cut down As you know, lots of people take heroin and manage to maintain. That's one of the differences between plants and pharmaceuticals. But then it does something that a lot of psychedelics don't do, which is it interrupts

16:25 And that's true. It's unregulated is the term. There is rumors, well, there are more than rumors, but some ibogaine activists are trying you know as you i'm sure you i think we're all in this community acutely aware of now the government And if there is too much pushback from that direction, I think he's going to try to avoid that as much as possible. When they did a recent survey of the United States of how many people think that marijuana should be legal, like recreationally legal, can, you know, you can't go back to the war on drugs.

19:30 nothing they can point to. It's not like anyone was saved. There's not like – These are bad people. And it's clear that, you know, not a jot of reflection or, you know, careful thought goes into these kinds of statements. You know, there is no there there. Yes, that's true. this age. It's in Buckinghamshire. U.S. government paid for this symposium held in San Francisco in 1967 called the Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs.

23:32 called Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs, I've wanted to do a follow-up conference. I wanted to do it on the 30th anniversary back in 97, but it never came together to do that. It's like, it looks exactly like Downton Abbey. I mean, it's an English country house, beautiful place, and we're pre-selling that now as part of the strategy for getting the money to pay for this thing. And we're doing okay.

26:23 So if you go there, you can order the book, Mark Plotkin, who runs the Amazon conservation team. You know, we can't have everybody come to Buckinghamshire, but we can have them all it's the books i mean the idea of actually collecting real physical books might like This is all very helpful. Now, how do you organize the 18 different people that are talking and the subject so there's no overlap and so that, you know, the message stays vibrant?

30:28 And in fact, truth in advertising, we got four talks on ayahuasca, but different aspects of ayahuasca that haven't really been discussed so much at conferences. And then we do have one gentleman talking about Kratom and, you know, a specialist of ethnopharmacologists talking about that. to be some new science it's going to kick you right back into gear let's hope so there's a

32:30 But salvia is, for people who don't know, super potent, psychedelic. Well, years back. Yeah, it's called a sage, but it's really a mint. He provides, I mean, salvia. Yeah. Those kinds of experiences, believe it or not, are not that uncommon on Salvia. I mean, I think Salvia is interesting in that regard in that, you know, some of these ones that, you know, they're worth exploring, right?

36:28 container of it, like the size of this Stevia container, which is, for people who don't know, if it puts you in this void place or the zero energy point, I don't know if you've had James Oroch on here. And, you know, his thing is 5-methoxy. You excrete the venom. Well, who knows? But bufo alvarius is the only species known that contains 5-methoxy DMT.

39:33 Really? Right. Yeah. you know, they'll never reach a point where you could actually perceive any effect because the Yes, I've heard about this guy. But you look at his artwork and you go, oh, yeah, that's what that is. And so this young guy, we'll find out his name. I first heard of this guy from John Ohia, This gentleman from, holy moly. Take a look at this. Yeah.

42:48 Yeah, well, I'm waiting for the, we're building a new studio. He's just going to leave it alone. His paintings will leave you speechless. it is produced by the pineal gland in live rats so we know now for a fact that at least in that Wow. That is very interesting. And he's writing things down and I'm, you know, writing, telling him about Strassman's work and you and your brother and all these different things to look into.

45:42 Well, she just, she knew as soon as the guy said pineal gland and my eyes lit up and I'm like, here we go. All these people are deluded. want any fistfights. They're going to be talking about this and doing a debate on it. Breaking Of course he's done it. says it's impossible, he's almost certainly wrong. What about the other thing, like in terms of like holotropic breathing or all these different shamanic breathing and yogic exercises, Kundalini yoga, which I haven't experienced it in Kundalini yoga, but I did have a very bizarre experience fairly recently on yoga where I went in a

49:52 Very small percentage. especially kundalini, is probably about inducing DMT synthesis in the pineal or wherever it occurs. Guy Harriman, and he used to work for Apple. He actually worked very closely with Steve Jobs when Really? And they're just white LEDs. What's with the orange outfit, seriously? You know into any costume to do it, but I would think do it a couple times

53:10 Well, yeah, you close your eyes. And there are ways to do it. I just want to know, does it really What you'd probably want to do with that is to have some kind of goggles, essentially, that could be connected to his program by Bluetooth or something. make psychedelics That was your brother's classic line, everyone's holding. Honestly, I didn't get that because I think I was not under long enough.

56:47 Do you feel this because it was ramping up during your experience? It cost about $3,300, you know, which is not bad, but beyond my pay grade right now. All right. discount on it if you go through the Facebook I know that I have a good buddy I'm not inclined. And Dave Nichols, what does he believe? You'll have to get him on here and let him explain himself.

1:00:05 Because in fact, we know nothing, you know. You know, I don't want to get too into the chemistry, but basically you remove the acid portion of the amino acid, There are thousands and thousands and thousands of species of plants that contain DMT, for sure. burning bush was the acacia tree a psychedelic trip induced by DMT and most likely because of the acacia tree.

1:02:47 How was he exposed to this? And, you know, because that will make a difference because you can't eat DMT because it's destroyed by monoamine oxidase, right? That's See if you can find some of that. You're talking about a burning bush. Who knows? If you could explain to the uninitiated why that's important with the monoamine oxidase. So that's the basis of the oral activity.

1:06:35 But what is interesting to me in a way or what I've been thinking about lately, if you look at the archaeology of these things, the snuffs that... are these snuffs that contain DMT. But isn't that the place of the pharmacological daredevil? Truth to tell, beta carbolines are not that uncommon. and that or if they did they had it in lower amounts and it allowed more dimethyltryptamine

1:08:56 And when you see jaguars that do trip, Could it be like catnip? And there are three that they're just MAO inhibitors is not really true. Very common, all kinds of kinases around the body. Well, I hope it's true because this is my— Yes, they were calling it telepathy. So that's how those alkaloids got their names. was in some ways useless because they forgot to collect the actual plants that they did the

1:14:27 amazonica. And chemists don't think in terms of the botany. while, you know, there's so much to be learned still. 30%? That's the big issue. always revising this number, and they always seem to revise it up. But between 250,000 to 300,000 species of so-called higher plants. There's been a lot of work, but it's not really touching a big proportion of it.

1:18:52 They want it all to come out of vats in their laboratories. That may not be what makes it to the clinic, right? Well, that's another difference. Marinol, it does what it does. A lot of other things in cannabis as well. Is that what it's used for? making such poor choices in that regard that someone can't step up and logically address It's patented.

1:23:36 and what they've patented is the formulization? That's a company called Jombo makes a spray. My own concern. I mean, I think it does have a lot of applications. It does become a problem. and said, we've been using this medicine for thousands of years. How is it that, oh, it was flower color is highly variable. It was a useless patent in every respect.

1:27:29 So, and he was not, you know, he lost a lot of respect You know, if you're going to commercialize this traditional medicine, they should get something back. make a billion dollar drug out of this, you should be able hey, I'll give you a ride across the river, but do me a favor and don't sting me, because And make more money every year. They want drugs you take four times a day for the rest of your life.

1:31:23 You know, I mean, That's the model. going on now with ayahuasca is that there are some companies that have had an exemption through the So the question is, and now people are beginning to sort of recognize this or ask the question. It is a real religion. there are Christian based religions as well. Yeah. Well, they're Christian based religions. There's just freelance practitioners.

1:34:26 They don't even get upset if you even call it a drug or a medicine. that what they've done is they've used this scaffolding of Christianity pleasant guy he was explaining how he sat down with these people in the morning after all this You know, it's a religion. I mean, the thing is I haven't had much to do with Santo Taimi. Yeah, that's pretty much what I told them. You know, you don't want me. I'm a heretic by nature, but I'm happy to, you know, share your brew. And they do make fine, fine brew.

1:37:31 But everything on DMT is ridiculous and preposterous. and they try to fight the experience. I really wonder if these people are embracing I mean, these are elements of a kind of the, I don't know what you call it, generic religion. Only the priests get to have it. But the thing is, and this happens, it's not just Christianity. So in these power structure, there's always someone who says, you know,

1:41:36 Yeah, it's always a man. It happens in the ayahuasca thing. And you can call it technology if you want, but this pathway to this incredible experience they provided to people. not really absorbing the lessons that they should be getting Why a catheter? Not that. locks him in place, and They just run out of her. Just some perfect, super hot, 10 Russian hooker looking chick.

1:45:46 And a lot of factors come into play. Before I had children, I used to think of people as being in a static state. Like that's Trump. I mean, this is the guy that, you know, everything has to have his name on it. It's all Trump this and Trump that. And if you looked at like the great mile he must win by a hundred miles. Right. Reflection and lack of humility.

1:49:06 this impulse to respond. I mean, I think that, you know, I don't know. I mean, he's not going to be you know? Right. Alternative facts are lies. yeah there's only such a bizarre candy coating of bullshit alternative facts is the putting as much power as we put into one individual is insanely problematic. process. deal with here, you almost need to have someone who has some sort of experience with those

1:52:55 in deep shit right or that's I mean I mean Donald appoints advisors who It's not even on the table. Which is really scary. known this for a long time. Governments are just puppets. alongside some of the brightest minds and most innovative people that have ever walked the face of the planet that are influencing things in a way And there are solutions to the problems that face us, right?

1:56:55 Why even, you know, there are better solutions, you know, or the whole attitude toward drugs. We need some sort of a force to be And I agree, it's been a wake-up call. I just admire journalism. The question is, will the Republicans find enough spying to do that? But they did Well, the immigration stuff is pretty real here in California. I mean, And he goes, let me see some documentation.

2:01:16 And why are you asking people where they're born? They're grabbing people. And there's a bunch of Yeah, it is a very weird time, but I think it's temporary. And it wasn't journalism, and you're right. I would just, I would just, I like, I would like to think that journalism is finding its they are reinvigorated. Yeah. And, you know, hopefully circumstances will enable us to get rid of them quickly.

2:04:59 and their sticks and people are throwing you know smoke, smoke bombs. I'm like, this is crazy. Because I think these plant medicines are the single most important catalyst for changing consciousness on a global level. That can change hearts and minds. And this is the way it's... So ayahuasca is an ambassador from the community of species to what I call the problematic primates, you know, this out-of-control species that needs a good talking to in a certain sense.

2:07:49 I think, if anything, it's a gateway drug to the ones that are going to change the world. now right we you know so gateway drug it's just the concept is absurd. You can get it almost everywhere you go. Isn't it funny that the word drug, I'm not funny, but isn't it problematic at the very least This is another reason. Or we just ban all drugs. of drugs, right? That's why drugs work. We are made of drugs, right? We're biochemical engines

2:11:12 people that want to have the drug-free America, I'm sorry, you know, we're made out of drugs. much science, and you don't have enough Jesus. You don't have enough Jesus in your life. If you had I've been there. adrenaline is it's what all these different things are. I didn't say it first. So if you think about it, it's quite true. They make you re-appreciate your relationship with nature.

2:14:39 Right. That is exactly right. You know, it's the medicine that's in the shaman. And that's the essential thing because the medicine itself is the shaman. They do all sorts of things. There's the endocannabinoid system. They are responsive to things that we make in the body like anandamide. They evolved not because there were cannabis plants out there,

2:18:22 But it's not because the plants were there that we evolved these things. The receptors were there first. Tryptophan, which is the amino acid we were talking about, precursor to many of these Serotonin is, receptors are very old phylogenetically, evolutionarily. which is why high stress is one way to induce altered states of consciousness on the natch, right?

2:21:58 There is no state you can experience, including the state that we're in right now, that is not a reflection if we received everything from the environment all the time, We wouldn't be able to focus on anything. it relates. But a lot of what the brain does when you essentially create this hallucination, if you want to call it that, of the reality that we inhabit.

2:24:39 But it doesn't exist to humans. Of course. Absolutely. It is not a, to my mind, it's not a devaluation to say, well, it's chemically mediated. It's still real. You know, you can even study it. Suddenly science can study mystical experiences because we have a reliable trigger that will nine times out of ten induce a mystical experience in the right circumstances. So then we can take somebody, you know, maybe somebody's meditated for 20 years or done yoga or done other things, hoping that they might have a mystical experience.

2:27:36 I've studied this city of levitation for 30 years, Speaking of mushrooms, this is something that I get wrong all the time. It would be awesome. Okay. Oh. It's on this one as well. That's the only difference. Because what's going on with that, That's why it's orally active because essentially it can't get to that nitrogen. That's amazing. That's very interesting. In the intense environment of sparring and the intense physical kinetic interaction of kickboxing.

2:32:05 Psychedelics temporarily disrupt that. You can look at natural phenomena, and you will notice things about that, And obviously he invented polymerase chain reaction, which he got the Nobel Prize for. are behaving this way or these different things. I am here. You absolutely are. and I think that's a very useful thing to learn. I don't know if you've ever read or had Stephen Buhner on your show.

2:37:13 And it's an interesting, That's exactly what I'm talking about. is one reason why, if you smoke DMT, right, you have a complete revelation, it's amazing, And so on the individual level, this is what people do. and I think put a linguistic tag on it in a certain way so It's a lot like dreams. I am not one of these people that says, We're done now. 500 times or more. And people say, well, you know, surely you've learned everything there is to

2:42:39 A lot of people can be grateful for that. Yeah. I'm sure you get hundreds of requests, but certain people you ought to be talking to. go there if you want to attend it. The cost is high to actually go there and do it. But people We haven't made plans to live stream it on Vimeo. I don't know how you do that. I'll put it on all the available social media pages.

2:44:57 to them to make sure that they do, in fact, submit a full paper in the spirit of the first conference. I appreciate you very, very much.