Joe Rogan Experience #958 — Jordan Peterson Transcript

Transcript

0:00 two one And you think this is all based on your outspoken and very public denouncing of the political correctness something to do with it. Still, still a taboo subject. of what you teach and what you're involved in. with signs in the room, just completely disrupting what you're doing. And they allowed this all to without hearing protection. They're supposed to be

3:50 There's a fist in it. the Nazi doctrine was so explicitly racist, but God, it's not like the hammer and sickle wasn't with people who are demonstrating like that. They're in a kind of trance, you know. And I a couple of benches, and the people that wanted to hear kind of made a circle around me, and that more or less, by chance, pushed all the protesters to the back so that I could address the people

6:11 and that gets put online. So, you know, hooray. But, you know, I have seen the odd person at those rallies that really isn't well put together. I guess they're, what are they trying to do, be allies of the women for their own nefarious purposes? There's something seriously creepy about it. I mean, I saw, too, that guy at the Berkeley, the recent Berkeley demonstration,

9:31 So he, they're pretty sure that that's the guy. don't like the way they think and hit them in the head with a metal thing. It's just so it's so You know, it's partly why I don't get upset. It's not part of the postmodern ethos Yeah, no, no, it wasn't possible at that venue. that seems to me to be one of the weirder aspects of this thing that you're

12:06 we talked about the last time you were here, Well, with Bill C-16, which was the bill that I was complaining about, or criticizing, let's say, I mean, the gender, look up the gender unicorn. man. Check that thing out. Gender identity, female, woman, girl, male, man, boy, other gender, kids over i would say 10 yeah why does the gender unicorn have a double helix dna symbol where it's

14:57 Yeah, there's an indefinite number of weird things about that. outside of the academic system. People and the reason i did that was because the two women who founded black lives matter in toronto One of them has publicly stated that white people are inferior to black people because Clearly, clearly. You're saying about two individuals. Because men and women can be anything.

18:27 They're not happy about, like, my sampling of the trans community, They don't believe, they're not homogenous in their political viewpoints, you know, and And there's plenty of them on YouTube who are complaining about the social justice appropriation then that means you're one of that group and that everything that you do indicates only that. They're not into labels or into generalizing behavior

21:25 and really being very vocal about it. And the drama is always the same. I mean, you can see that in the demonstrations, And, of course, egged on by their pathological postmodern professors who are hiding behind them like scared weasels. Yes, it was more specific, which was, you know, rather flattering and all of that. I mean, I don't expect people to be 100% honest, because, of course, who is?

24:35 I'm not doing that. you would prefer to be called a she. They prefer female to male. The other thing is those are all third-person it's just all of it is palpably who already have enough problems, in my social revolutionary that's directionless, except that you want to tear things apart, Right. Right, a personal issue. many people that are of asexual or of some sort of, I mean, what would be a Z or a Zer?

28:42 Or maybe, they say technically in the policy guidelines, It doesn't mean anything. It's nonsense. It's nonsense. So you have, so here's the options, and we're like, okay, okay, she. All right, Jamie, now you're she. But when it gets to like zur and z and the 78 different gender pronouns wouldn't have had any effect, right? It would have just disappeared, but it didn't. And that's because there's more going on than the straightforward issue surrounding the pronoun

31:32 commute that other people yeah well they don't like me poking holes in their ideology and who became quite popular in the late 1970s really, thoroughly in the sand and made sure their ears were full too. But by the mid-1970s, the other disciplines. So for example, among the people who were studying finite set of objects. So the fact that vision, for example,

34:20 because seeing is actually the mapping So I see the function. But there's an endless number of interpretations. because it's so complex and so sophisticated. And there's a way world in a way that facilitates all, people are going to object to that, right? It ends your life, it ends many people's lives, allows us to live and thrive over multiple periods of time in multiple environments while we're doing

38:39 See, just to talk to, like, let's say if you're a postmodernist, They regard the idea of, the idea that if you're in one power group and I'm in another, It's a complete assault, it's a complete... That's not the thing. It's not any more than any, every Muslim knows the entire Muslim doctrine or Islamic doctrine or every Christian knows the entire Christian doctrine.

41:09 a bunch of different parts to this. Everything strengthens. Not any one neuron has the entire idea set. And so there are individuals who are more representative of the entire set of ideas I think it was Madness and Civilization where he advanced that particular doctrine. The way they manifest themselves is clearly shaped by society and language. I didn't find his work the least bit

44:51 They pulled out this frame problem issue, the issue of multiple interpretations, And we're in a war between these ideas. it's almost like a scapegoat mentality. And it's a terrible thing to understand and realize. how in the world are you going to put those two things together? Well, you can't. That's the malevolent aspect of it, seek out a local mental health counselling unit

49:06 to think that your monitoring of your students' private utterances, And so there's the authoritarian element to it, which is a hatred of, see, and you're not too concerned about doing anything other than that. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because Jacques Derrida described Western culture, Like, logos is, it's essentially, it's a theological concept,

51:25 Or maybe to correct anything in any way. she was fired by the Trump administration because she although I don't agree with him, and I agree more with her. I still want to get back to this, that the hatred or the dislike of clear thinking. They feel it? who's outside of it is a predatory snake. It's something like that. And so you're seeing that It was actually a Make Bitcoin Great Again hat.

55:37 and then to persecute the damned. and those people are going to get us, so eventually that becomes, well, we'll get them first. for what we were talking about in regards to a soldier being able to commit these horrible atrocities in the name of war to these people that are able to look at someone who has a differing ideology as the other and attack them as almost like a subhuman. Is there some sort of an evolutionary origin for this disassociative sort of thinking and behavior

57:52 social relationships and that's that's also also that's right exactly and that's correlated with as explored territory. things you don't know. You know, a trillion say you're at a party and you tell a joke, and no one laughs. Well, the party, see, think about what process the alien is the snake There's a great paper published in a journal called PLOS1,

1:00:31 study where they went to a number of different countries and also looked at states within the Well, it's all because they're external threats to the structure of the dominance hierarchy. What's that heroin addict author? associated with this trait called orderliness, which is actually a good predictor of right-wing The Aryan race is a body. It's a pure body. The blood is pure.

1:02:55 So he was a really orderly guy. They used Zyklon B to do the insecticide. And then it was Jews and gypsies and parasites and rats. we use for fertilizer today. what's the biological basis and the biological basis is that like we're basically wired in some That's a very tight constraint. Right. tribe is human i mean most tribes around the world the name for their tribe is the people

1:07:08 that trade with the foreigner has benefits that outweigh the the the um the risks and generally that screamed the paramount status of the individual, you don't know what that's contaminated with, You kill it. that allows people to act that way in war but it's also an idea that's been developed intensively in the west for thousands and thousands mankind. And you see, the thing that makes itself manifest inside in the Genesis story is a snake.

1:11:32 It was all external. So that's where the idea of an articulated morality starts to come from, And after they were embodied first, not as bad, but as a bad thing or a bad person. heroic attributes than the typical person. And that's where abstract ideas are born. So anyways, And it makes a whole lot of sense that there's an actual, right you know like that was always an issue with people uh with invading tribes and like you said

1:14:10 the threat of being attacked. From what I understand, people like special ops people, So it's not just acting, but it's also reacting, to. But that's part of a more general phenomena phenomena which is that in the face of a stressor you're Well, because that's what happens to a prey animal when a horrible predator looks at it. stone and that is the biggest issue with people it's not fight or flight people think it's fight or flight it's fight flight or freeze right

1:16:59 tears and run so well if they're socially anxious that's exactly what's going to happen because they've listen to this, who maybe might have opposed some of your ideas before, I think they'll get a better and for reasons that I outlined to some degree when I was talking about Genesis a little bit earlier. But they're kind of conceptualizing being as such

1:19:13 is because the reality that you encounter one thing for another. at some point. As I said,, we discovered the future at some point. That idea that you could bargain with the future came out of the idea that god was a personality because 20,000 years, 100,000 years, before we got anywhere near the idea that you could do that abstractly. You can just discount it.

1:21:42 It's associated with the sense of awe. when it looks at a particularly big dog. Well, part of the reason is that we share an evolutionary pathway with all these things that we eat, you know, plants and fungi and, you know, look, we're linked evolutionarily to every form of life on the planet, you know. It's older than flowers. it's so strange because, you know, people think of evolution from a natural selection perspective almost always, but sexual selection plays a huge role.

1:24:05 either have two kids or zero. Well, that's basically what it is on average across time. If you're a man, they do it? Well, they look at the male dominance hierarchy. And that's where the men are competing. and there are influential men that rise to the top, So that means that the male dominance hierarchy is a selection mechanism mediated by the female.

1:26:19 It's the thing that's at the top. Now imagine that that's happened for six million years. Well, unsurprisingly. We start to understand what it means to be the hero. We start to tell stories about that. That would be not only so, it would be you take 10 admirable people and you pull out someone who's So in a sense, psychologically, when you're talking about postmodernists

1:29:28 when you i mean it's almost like a we i avoid doing it because i just it just almost feels That's deep. You know, it's like the truth is something that burns. And it can easily be 95% of you. It's exactly right, man. that we're in a period of chaos what's a kekistan kek oh kek is a mythological country that's ruled a big internet thing yes he killed him off

1:32:35 Here it is. It's a frog. question you asked me and my answer was i don't know we're in a period of chaos we're in a period It's that they are enjoying that it's falling apart. It's almost like trolling, but it's like a separate level of trolling. A year ago? And so that's a really cool thing to know, Joe. Right and that's where the unconscious forces play. Those are the gods

1:36:31 literally yeah well and that's beowulf right yeah sure that's the oldest story of mankind It puts you in this state of chaos. as a shield and a weapon. Right? it's a sword That's the thing about these categories. So, you know, sometimes people go out to fight a dragon Well, it is. It is, except language turns out to be about a lot more than, like, you can't take a

1:39:52 because of this. I mean, to engage you in this battle of rhetoric, write me and say, man, that was really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite fun because it's something I always tell people to do, because you build your competence that way. I think there is truth in that. something about you know not worrying too much about the log in your neighbor's eye or about

1:43:30 It's like, so I had this idea a long time ago, because the world is a pretty dreadful place. practiced a bit and and so you're a little stronger and then something else manifests So many times, I mean, here's a perfect example that people will understand and be able to resonate with. I mean, there's legitimately motivational people that find great benefit in being an example, a powerful, strong example, and they find great comfort in showing people their methods that they've used in order to improve their life, like your own self-auditing system that you're promoting.

1:46:28 People can improve themselves, I think, to a degree that we don't understand. And you might disagree, but you would definitely understand the statement. Authors, you see that with musicians, comedians, all sorts of people that create things. And then deeper than Jung. You see, so Jung didn't believe that you could be a good person until you realized your capacity for evil.

1:49:08 So there's no morality in that. if you start to understand who you are then you understand the nazis and who wants to understand to describe themselves. it's because you're a monster i mean look right so it's one of the reasons why i do it in almost because i want it to be in an almost It's a fucked up bit. They're a mediator between the normal world and the world of the gods they're tricksters so it was

1:53:25 Like, right on. and you have to want to hurt people. I mean, not for the sake of hurting them, that's what makes you different than an evil person. But you have to have that capacity, you have to develop that. what is an intellectual if you're not how about nobody well the thing see because my ideas aren't disembodied i act them And it's talking and people are gathered around listening.

1:55:38 And That's right. Yeah, it's the intellect. It functions in precisely that manner. we serve hunger, we serve rage. It's a god. We have to think about it functionally to some degree. It's like, really? This was one of his elucidations of the structure of the Bible. might say well the superordinate principle doesn't exist it's like okay keep running it that way and

1:59:52 a brief period of time, and it gets corrupt, and a prophet comes up and says, remember that or the Russian state, the communist state, if we could only bring utopia in at the political level, It's the truthful individual that salvation you think of how difficult a concept like that is to develop if there's anything less They lose sight of the superordinate principle, whatever that is.

2:01:56 They're afraid to speak He didn't say that triumphantly. Nietzsche said, look, we're losing our faith. where his concept of the overman comes Because, look, it's so hard to create your own values. And so Jung's idea was, well, that we had to go back to the mythology. make them more rational and articulate. And believe me, that's no critique, because every

2:05:02 it's like no one ever mentioned that before and i it, it's, it's, it just boggles my mind. I'm asking because, uh, I feel like that's how more obvious could it be right you know and so you might say well who's the leader of the and so then those gods went to war and Then there's like 50 tribes. It's like, yeah, that's exactly what he is You've got time.

2:08:30 what they mean they mean i'm in pain and anxious all the time that's what they mean those are idea. This is the idea of the meta-pattern of Christ's life in their own, to make it their own story. usually there's things that have happened there. You know, they just beggar the imagination. It's be very different than mine or Jamie's. I mean, you kind of have to have your own path. And I think that's also

2:11:31 It needs you to be part of society. It needs you to adopt the norms and to squelch your one thing. So, you know, So there's a hero and the adversary on the individual level and then on the social level. There's the wise king and the tyrant and you're one frozen puppy to we're like we're adapted to the things that last forever. try to get people to do with that future authoring program. To say, okay, look, here's a place to

2:14:19 And then the college kids are like 30% more likely to stay in university if they do that, That's no joke. You know, if you're a sophisticated person, as far as I'm concerned, how many important things are there in life? it places you in the world. who shouldn't miss it, because maybe they have another purpose that transcends that. But that's Right.

2:16:42 There's always going to be people like that and we need them. The smarter the kid, the earlier they learn to lie. And there's going to be times in your life where you have no one to turn to except you. Because one of the things say we do with the future authoring program we offer people a little heaven. It's like okay And the more transcendent the goal, the more they're engaged.

2:18:40 Everyone knows, hey, some people know they'd be a street person. Some people know they'd be an alcoholic. It's like, yes, well, that's heaven and hell. I mean, self-sabotage is one of the most common things that you find in people that are struggling. worm-like self to the level of tolerability you know you can say well yeah i've got all You asked about the evolutionary basis of...

2:21:01 I'm distracted by something else that's happening right now. Yeah. So we were talking about the necessity of taking on the burden of a responsibility. I believe that there are certain human reward systems Yeah, well, I'm more off. The pain trumps everything. So if you need a burden, it's like, how about dampening down the unnecessary suffering a little bit?

2:24:22 of your ultimate happiness to have these obstacles to So the frog agrees to ferry the scorpion across, Right, but do you think that that nature is because that is how we survived? person. Well, who is that? Well, that's the heroic type. Human beings have chosen that. And then the Well, they certainly know about sexual selection by female choice, who is it that they're electing?

2:27:29 and the survival of the species Does that person still need purpose? It's something Kierkegaard pointed out like 150 years ago. this, this statement that he said to me, he was one of the managers of the comedy store. And he was addicted to, I think it was EverQuest, which is this crazy role-playing game that you just do In the video game world, he was like some warlock.

2:30:14 they're a precursor to that. artificial world that we will be embedded in in the very near future well you know we we decided Right. I say fantastic, not in a positive way, but that Donald Trump is our president now, the president Right. ideology lies. trump wow and so and you know it's a sentiment that i can appreciate yeah so and so here we are And that's just scratching the surface.

2:33:52 Yeah, wow. Right. regarding yourself properly as a fledgling member of the elite you want to have it both ways you and automated vehicles giving everyone And then maybe that revolution, like what do people do with leisure time? because the job that they were stuck in doesn't exist anymore? They develop chronic pain problems. Well, my thought is that unemployment, if you've got something like universal basic income, out. Right. Yeah, but that's unemployment. Is it a kind of a different thing? I don't know.

2:37:23 Yeah. Yeah. Well, i have no idea what to Like, are there people that are just, that it's never been nurtured in them? like, it's not all sweetness and light, man. Even now, like, creative people, it's hard to monetize your creativity. some zebras you think people think well those zebras are camouflaged because they have black nice daub of red paint on the zebra's haunch or you clip its ear like with a cattle clip and

2:40:44 Yeah, that's a military camouflage pattern. It's actually for animals. Oh, they've invented a bunch of stuff, I'm sure. I'll give you guys that. I'm a fan of Canada, Well, I don't know. We're like elevator music compared to a full symphony. I don't think it's a place that is great at dealing with excellence. and find themselves coming up short. for your delectation, let's say.

2:44:23 best neurosurgeons actually know how to do surgery. That's not just a power thing, right? The best farmers, hey, they grow Well, that's, yes. In this postmodernism view of the world. Like, what does that mean? It has nothing to do with the masculine or feminine. that's hard on women in some ways. I mean, my daughter, for example, is always mad at my son because, like, not chronically, but, you know, he'd have a dispute with one of his friends and maybe it would get physical.

2:47:05 You're talking about young people. It's definitely not And there was enough of them, so the university thought they needed to react to that pressure. That's a charitable way of interpreting it, but reasonable. But then a bunch of people post-media system which was about 150 or 200 newspapers and so the university had a reason And partly, I suppose, I was always reasonable during the negotiations because I'm a reasonable person.

2:50:11 But I decided that it was better to get back on the horse, so to speak. any of that yet i mean i would say i'm about seven months behind in my understanding of my own life but not all the time because, of course, that's a lot of travel. from in terms of, is there any other academic that Something like that. Like, are you the most powerful interviewer on the planet?

2:53:10 well what I do is just keep doing it Very, very different conversation. And this is this flat earth theory. And, you know, there is this idea that, as I said before, that they inhabit. They're almost like the abstract equivalent of video games, you know? Yeah. And much less interested in pursuing the truth or any sort of objective reasoning. But the thicker you make the walls,

2:56:42 We just did it. Well, thank you very much for both occasions. Really good.