Joe Rogan Experience #974 — Megan Phelps-Roper Transcript

Transcript

0:00 3, 2, 1, yes. Are we live? Not yet. Pause. Hold. YouTube. Some sort of a struggle. Yeah, we're live. Okay. How are you? You're a Wheeler Walker Jr. fan, I see? person that grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church, for a person on the outside, for me, And in their eyes, it's the definition of loving. Was there ever any dissent amongst the people that were in the church about like how the message is being distributed?

2:46 the scriptures, uh, it's this connection between the sins of the nation and, uh, the, the punishments. So it's these threatenings, these warnings from God Like there had to be a lot of people that have like-minded views in Christianity, but still were furious at you people. So, I mean, there was definitely a lot of pushback So my grandfather had been, so it was 2005, so the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

5:45 So when you go out on the, you know, to these protests, a lot of times there would be media there, you know, people asking questions. these events in light of their understanding of the scriptures. So, you know, she goes through and explains this, you know, very carefully. Like, what was the reaction to other people or, you know, other people's reaction to you?

7:50 We're going to be protesting in your city. I was 19. Nobody was really talking. Nobody was really talking. What kind of things were they saying to you guys? and also there have you heard of the patriot riders? It was a group of motorcyclists who decided to and they formed like in across the country. What made you leave? Oh, there you go. Really? I believe in people, and that there is so much hope and for people and that we can,

12:31 I actually can't remember. Jews killed Jesus and they reject him as the Messiah i went and i was protesting him uh and he came out to the picket line and it was it was one of those like very rowdy pickets. There was a bunch of counter protesters like and they were it was, I don't know, guys dressed as like the Easter Bunny and Jesus. And, you know, it was actually got pretty violent. So I was actually super violent.

14:57 And then in Romans 1 in the New Testament, it's reiterated, And I remember, you know, this is all through Twitter. So I see this message and I kind of And so again, so I'm just sort of staring at my phone and, you know, in Topeka, Kansas, position, but she didn't address the contradiction. And when I seemed unsatisfied with it, that you're not ready to deal with

18:23 And that the church was basically right, except this one point. gays, you know, fags are a bundle of sticks, right? Used for kindling. So gays are, they burn a faggot, they would say that he is burdensome like a woman, like a bundle of wood, like a non If you see if you can find that, Jamie, Google that. You know, it's just like they drowned witches and things were done like real specifically.

21:18 Why does it have to be so weird? The bundle of sticks. But like they'll repeat it like to to make a big point like a big dramatic What has it been like? Well, I mean, I'm not trying to paint did you have a long conversation before you did it many it was about four months between when I first talked to her about leaving. We have to obey the law of, so we're not supposed to be just.

24:59 these things to her, she could easily have turned around and, and told my parents not as a, Yeah. but like it wasn't like that. it was like friendly conversation. So you just accepted that? I didn't know he was totally anonymous on Twitter. Like it's just his words. I didn't know what he cause he's not super well-versed in the Bible. Um, so he didn't know how to, he's like, I see that

29:27 I'm also talking to my sister and other people in the church. And I, I turned around to set my paintbrush down. I thought I had to go and leave that second. And what if we weren't here and she said what do you mean and I said what if we were somewhere else finally actually left and uh it was as as bad or worse as and i could have imagined but to get back

32:36 we have to go. And cause we, and I should say also, we had already been packing. Like we had, started coming my brother and some of the elders and my aunt my cousin you And I can hardly talk, you know, be just, just, I was so overwhelmed, but, um, Yeah. my, coming in they're saying yeah i mean like they're they're they're trying to convince us but once

35:45 is not our home this is not so we go and you know we're packing all of our things it was just it was Wow. Did you understand that it was a cult? But there are definitely aspects that are cultish. So you get all your stuff after you ring the doorbell, you're gone. And then how do you like it's so crazy when I look back now at videos, I, He was, and the next month he came for another week and then came again so the first time like i didn't

39:44 like I explained about the soldiers' funerals, I just just went along with something like i wanted to understand why i needed to understand then it was fine. And so then everybody, He was being really friendly, And I'm an atheist. So I thought immediately, so I, my degree is in finance. and all the Christians are going to vanish. Oh, they're so good.

42:08 oh my god you listen to Author of Going Clear, the book on Scientology. Those bitches. It's 1 Corinthians 11, 14, I think, actually. into the Bible that wasn't there before, Oh, what about clothes? and keeping kosher. everyone so god controlled the construction of the new testament as well exactly right even but what about it's just But it's a bunch of men wrote it.

45:16 And, you know, you can't really answer because Gramps said so. Um, anyway, I just wanted to close that loop. It's God's word. And as long as you believe that it's all God's will. Caused him. Why does God allow that? And it uses the example of Jacob and Esau, who in the Bible, Jacob and Esau were twins. Right? So he makes you do it Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,

48:40 and found so many of the interpretations, Yeah. Like, are you a crazy person? Greek and by the time it gets to English like boy what a terrible game of I found that like talking to God, I found thy words and I did eat them and they were unto me This is becoming these calcified positions and failures of empathy. Yeah. And when you are angry and aggressive and hostile, like it just elicits the same reaction.

53:31 book at the very least in terms of you know or two thousand years old like that But in terms of the age of the human race itself, rob wolf oldest homo sapien species discovered in morocco yeah what does it say time okay yeah add a hundred thousand years to the What about dinosaurs? and it was called moses the microbiologist the rules about washing your hands, which is like, of course the simplest and most effective

57:11 So like there's when you think about like just the history of humanity and how this book has shaped people's lives for so long I mean, that is bizarre. I think I might actually do that. I'm definitely not on the censorship or, you know, trying to like stop people. like... of course should be illegal. It's illegal. It it's violence and threats of violence. I think that, of course, should be illegal.

59:40 Right. Sometimes we argue ourselves there. That's human discourse in general. And they just decided maybe we should spend some time away. She goes, it leaves me really vulnerable to like being influenced and i was like wow that is fascinating she's like i'm wrote an open letter like he'd been somebody that i had sparred with on twitter quite a bit um and

1:02:39 over at Hollywood United Methodist Church. exactly doesn't the new testament represent it does does. It does. Homosexuality, right? Like, I remember Well, I know a dude, But like that, like, I think that's, it's honest, right? something stupid, does something wrong, does something bad. And it doesn't mean they're a bad We we the tendency now on did you read John Ronson's book?

1:05:31 And my family like this, this it's it's it was incredibly judgmental, like even within the church and became even more so towards the end of, you know, before my sister and I left where like everything. to do that with people that are also, they're terrified of scrutiny Oh, look at that. She's a lesbian. getting caught publicly shamed so many times, like how we talk to people, like it matters how you talk to people. But if we're

1:08:31 aids uh just kidding i'm white yeah exactly and that turned her life inside out right and i don't it's, it's dangerous. I think you're 100% right. I also think there's something that's going on Because we know that we've taken risks. the knowledge that they have that people are talking about them all the time in an evil way. And there's also just the sense of, of, I mean, righteousness, right? The self-righteousness,

1:11:55 this, like, I didn't really, of course, know her No, like they're, they're really like, they're constantly, they call themselves the watchers, And, you know, she said, we have to see them as human. And, you know, the only way you can change those things is to add to those experiences, like to introduce like David did on Twitter with me and my husband,

1:14:09 Does God hate fags or not? Like, are you right, grandpa? Like who would have the mind? Uh, we lived at home. Well, we, and it was, it was, I thought it was the greatest. You guys used to picket Scientology? Oh, was it? Oh God damn it. whatever, how many? so on the other side is the parade route. Sorry, I'm not getting away from the mic. So I'm holding my signs and I'm like, I've tucked myself into this barricade.

1:17:24 I see. And then when he jumped over the barricade, I mean, we thought that it was like it's their job, right? Did they say there will be no police presence whatsoever? Or you can't step on the flag or whatever. were all holding american flags all the way from from from the road all the way up this, you know, the long entry to the, to the church. And that's perfectly lawful.

1:20:19 message get in the way of them doing their job. But sometimes they did. Sometimes they would into people's houses and carjackings. And that's what they're supposed to be doing. They're provoking people and making them angry? a responsibility to save you from being gross. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I mean, obviously feet away. They have a right to decide.

1:24:07 and it's a limited amount of resources. adequate and fair use of resources to go and protect a bunch of troublemakers? and what aren't. antagonistic display your own security? To be able to say... assuming that something is going to go bad okay so for instance like go just back to the campus us. We're not trying to provoke you to hurt us. We're trying to deliver this message that we think

1:26:50 We weren't going to attack them and, and we didn't want to be attacked. to voice their concern for this message and letting both sides have their voices to allocate resources that are public use like police well so we obviously we didn't make the couple of um an fbi agent actually and a guy from the local police department come and say like It actually had more to do with logistics.

1:29:58 like, like again, I, I, I just think it's so important and I think it's important, What was it? we were in, Yeah. I hadn't talked to her in three and a half years and had said all kinds of terrible things, And like at the grocery store and on campus. are still at home and four of us are out. Do you talk to them? You talk to your mom? I mean, it's, I'm glad, I'm so glad to be living now and not, you know, before social media where I can actually see these things and know what they're up to and a little bit about how they want to reach out I do you do yeah I mean I do

1:33:56 Yeah. so hard to think back to like i was incredibly close with my mom and i i love her and i miss her would ask me this while i was still at the church and And it's so, it's like, uh, I, the only thing I can compare it to is like, They all have it. they'll talk to those people they won't talk to you right that's insane but this is one of your I guess, from my family.

1:36:48 And try to basically doing what I was doing for them now against them. tweeting me and tweeting about me. This is my best friend. And she sent me a message the next morning. those two signs like screaming into the camera. you know, they had publicly disavowed a sign and using the same Bible verses that I had so this is, It was after my, This idea gets into their head that what they're doing,

1:40:19 Yeah. after we left also. like how do i inherit eternal life and he says well jesus says what is what does the scripture And then it says a priest goes and sees the man And he said, he who has mercy on him. the example that Jesus gives is not preaching. after I was talking to a couple of Christian friends of mine who pointed that out. And I was That's not the fulfillment of that.

1:43:49 And that's, I mean, I'm kind of in a position to do that with my family now. Anybody, any of us like seeing our family all the time and like seeing them and not like it's, Witnesses, which we didn't know that when we booked it, it was an Airbnb. My first, So what is your process or what's the journey from leaving the church, going to Deadwood, and then becoming sort of a self-proclaimed atheist?

1:46:11 So it was like each, you know what am i feeling why am i feeling it is this just instinctive what is the evidence like And I'm sorry. the arrogance and the condescension and the certainty that we were right. And now of course, come to the Julicious Festival, which was a few weeks later. It's like end of February or something, I didn't know anything about Jewish people like I'd never really spent time with them.

1:50:00 me to be coming face to face with people. And, and I hadn't even been out of the church for three find a way, like, we didn't know what to do. Like, how do you move forward from there? And so we just, But then several years before we left, they cut off all contact with his family there also. a little over a month after we left, Like his dad is, it was career Air Force. He retired from the, from the Air Force. Um, and they're, they're wonderful people. And all we could see of them was, well, they're divorced and remarried. They're, they're going to hell. They're a bad influence. And like, it, what's, it's, it's insane to me now to think like my grandmother has been without her son, like her son for decades and how painful that, that must be.

1:53:05 when a lot of a lot of people hear jerk when they hear atheist right and uh i don't use that word And there's, uh, I, one of the reasons why I was reluctant to identify as an atheist is that so many people were asking me to identify as an atheist. There's so little we know about human life. Forget about the idea of possibility of afterlife or the Like who, who knows?

1:55:47 like, And I should say that actually they're not, Yeah. on the phone and i didn't even know it was her birthday it's like i was we were talking on the but but so i was just like very cautiously like like i don't know what happened but just know and like, oh, that's a neat trick. Because that's, you have, it's finding the inconsistency in these two beliefs that allows you to maybe question the bigger things, the bigger principles.

1:58:31 But do you, do you ever want to like grab your mom and go, you got to listen to me for Not me, my sister. She would listen to this? like when people leave, explanation like you can counter it effectively it's a game yeah you're scoring poor points So like it's, it's only by talking publicly. definitely might. And so even by their own understanding,

2:01:38 see, this is the thing. So like, you know, we, we took that as an example for us. So he prayed for And Saul, I guess. them that despitefully use you and persecute you so you're supposed to be praying for the good of your enemies. Right. And so it's, And so now there's eight elders and they're the eight pastors. We pray for 15,000 more. So they say,

2:04:14 there has been some moderation. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm almost finished writing a book. I'm nearing the... Is it a book to them? I actually did consider doing it that way, in a way that's hopefully very clear and, and, and, and just honest to the experience, like in as much Like I, I'm, I really don't like that idea at all. And the only reason I did the John Ronson

2:07:46 read accounts of people who have gone through similar situations, it, it's so helpful to me, like to realize like my family, like, yes, they manage their, their activities are kind of, with that sense of certainty and, and in my position and righteousness of my position But now you don't even have God. So there's this verse. Home is what the heart is.

2:10:16 It's because God puts an unction on our hearts. But it's that. perspective. So I guess what I'm saying now is like, I'm not, when I, when I talk to my family, right there's there's always that like if if you think there's like for instance like back to the Yeah. They're contradictions. That's what he would call us. Not now. No, no, no. Yeah. And I totally understand it.

2:14:12 So essentially he's the man who created the very bars that imprison your family right now. to the whims of the group mindset and that this was imperative for survival these tribal instincts of behavior to give us comfort in these patterns. Yeah. There is so much comfort in certainty. Actually, Sam, sorry, I cannot stop talking about Sam Harris. I said earlier, the bonds that are forged there.

2:17:54 dangerous they are and that we fall prey to them. But they're also the reason why we got here in around that long. I mean, they're talking about this, this modern human being they found 300,000 patches of dirt I'm a Texan like oh you're a Texan so this is all okay you know. I'm a Texan. Like, oh, you're a Texan. So this is all okay. You know, hey, we can go about trying to sort of shore those things up, like see the pitfalls and then try to

2:20:36 And you separated from your tribe. Actually, that's who I'm staying with here while I'm here. I must be a whore, right? I wouldn't go there. But David was like, it's like you are your parents' children. Right. there's a new yorker article that came out at the end of 2015 and so i i was doing interviews with details and the church, It was about the soldier's funeral,

2:23:45 chapters at a time with my family and all this stuff. I, sorry. a person It's like, I see what you're doing. and then there's that. Okay. It makes this. So it's all these little tools in order to operate So fuck your doubts. You know what I'm saying? with this whole tribalism cult-like behavior it's justifying your own patterns of thinking Yes, exactly.

2:27:26 And so, and it's like, by default, it's it's like well you know exactly why all these people are wrong methodists Like, this is not God's approach. It's important. doesn't matter how we say the message people are still going to hate it like if you if you say you So like, you know, in the new Testament, uh, And even the Bible talks about it. So like,

2:30:29 you know a child whose father had just died or parents whose children had just died it's just I think you're uniquely qualified to sort of translate those. So it's just it's always this like openness to to change and to into i don't know finding a better way one of the things you did that's incredibly brave It was Everything You Know Is Wrong, Up Is Down, Black Is White, and Short Is Long.

2:32:55 how, Anybody who'd seen like all the documentaries, all the times that I had so publicly defended all these ideas and now realizing like, how can I possibly face that? even if they're wrong, there's comfort in, there's comfort in going back to those cigarettes. I think it's really hard to say, I mean, a lot of things, but, but two things just for and i'm just gonna keep trying to get i'm gonna keep trying to get better like you don't want to

2:36:06 I don't have to know. Is that true? this incredible desire to become a part of a group. I mean, everybody does. We find comfort in these You know, it's the human where we find ourselves existing and communicating that clearly is And on that note. the fact that it's only 140 characters like nothing taught me how to be more i'm very i'm like when i did do that like there's this immediate feedback loop that you get so like you can watch

2:39:48 I mean, I'm constantly being sent articles. Yes. Sorry. is just Megan Phelps. We'll do it again. Thank you for being so brave, too. See you tomorrow.