Joe Rogan Experience #1299 — Annie Jacobsen Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Now, we're live. 3, 2, 1, boom. Hello, Annie. is stuff that you want to know about very few people know about and every now and then a And it was all about beating Stalin at his black propaganda I mean this is like a – this is a tough opening. I'm going to make you earn that. But I want to just, yeah. I mean, I've spent five books dealing with the mythology of Area 51, which is phenomenal in its own way.

3:16 Yes. tells the story of receiving that craft at Area 51 in 1951, So you're talking about four years after the supposed crash. Yes. begins to work with disinformation versus cover stories and all of that. But going back to answer Well, even if they weren't aliens, right? But there was no definitive proof that there was something going on over there other than some weird VHS footage of things flying around in the desert that seemed to be behaving in a way that modern aircrafts are not totally capable of.

6:45 what the military is capable of in the air, story what's it really there's some fascinating aspects to it but one of the most fascinating is And there is a campaign to discredit that person. then the Bob Lazar story is that when Bob Lazar said, Well, the source was a major player in the Manhattan Project. He recently died and he did give me permission to tell his full story after he died.

10:20 I don't believe he was lying whatsoever. War when we- So these are two sides of the coin, which are super interesting, I think, if you can look at them with your own bias turned off and not have a desired outcome i want to believe this i don't want to Yeah. With aliens, you think? And when I look at things, I go, hmm, I don't know about that. We'd sit in a Chinese restaurant and eat and talk, and I would try to get a droplet of information out of him what was he

14:07 And I think especially when they're talking about secret information that they were sworn to protect. And they all said to me, you've got to talk to the top engineer of all this weaponry. We altered people to make them look like aliens? when you say handicapped you mean like down syndrome or something like that and they made people i mean my new book surprise kill vanish it's about assassins it's about people who work

16:59 Was he saying that there have never been any encounters with alien spacecrafts? That was speculative. that all went on the record in name. might come back and tell you and your audience his name this is your book i want to promote your book I'm going to come back on your show after you read it. Oh, right. drone was attached to it and it was jettisoned off okay so according to in those days well in 1947

19:18 So he invaded our airspace and then let this drone crash land on the ground There was an M-21, which was the mothership, I mean, there's incredible stories of what the CIA was able to do out there at Area 51 bit by bit. And then there's these great breakthroughs, because what the government You know, when the F-117 was revealed during the first Gulf War. That aircraft was being developed for 20, 25 years out at Area 51.

22:03 going to mimic that and now you have to have a new weapon system and that's the military industrial complex. Some people say because of my book, meaning it was out, the secret was out. Why? mean, when you reveal these kinds of things, when you write about them, I mean, people get really Zalians, they're coming. Maybe. they were very clear that this is going to be a reading of Orson Welles' War of Worlds book.

26:10 They did that in other countries in different languages when they saw how cute it worked in America. I know. He invented it. Well, then we're in the Korean War, our pilots start getting shot down. They're put on TV I mean we're playing catch-up, then we're ahead, then we're behind. We sat there and talked about everything. Okay. game which is war you have to be very careful about what you reveal what you don't reveal

30:12 I'm thinking, OK, he is not a diplomat. I mean, he's weapons trained. At the time, my boys were He's taking out al-Qaeda with this. me. In other words, I could deal with him with a sniper rifle. I could be like, okay, that's what because they were Nazis, right? But we can't, we're not supposed to do that anymore in this world we live in. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and there's, that's a great question because what you're saying is like, okay, so, but we all think of that as reprehensible.

33:50 He's a threat by releasing it. And the euphemisms involved. I mean, there is an actual kill list. There always has been. And the euphemisms involved. Whoa. Close. that was fascinating i mean i interviewed a guy named john rizzo who's a decades-long cia attorney Whoa. Think about that. Government wants that to be kept secret. you know. And again, to your question, well, why does someone get to know that? And why does the

38:14 Well, if you wonder why the military budget is so big, that's what it is, folks. detected by radar and then they meet up with a team on the ground and go do what they do. Well, I mean, I write in the book that that's in the prologue After talking to a lot of 20-year-old soldiers They are tier one operators. I mean, I think that that concept speaks to choice, right?

41:39 whether it's saving private ryan or um black haw even, right, where the outcome is not necessarily great. this is this the president is requesting that this person get taken out the chiefs of staff and we you know i don't know if you know but he, he was killed by the Bolivian Rangers, but it was a CIA operation. And I interviewed the man in charge of that operation in Surprise Kilvanish. His name was Felix Rodriguez, okay, long serving CIA paramilitary officer.

44:17 that answer, but I will tell you what I did. I went with my main source, Billy Waugh, who he's 89 now, and he's been with the CIA for 60 years. smoked cigars kill, he was tasked to kill the top commander of the North Vietnamese Army, a guy named General which is its mission statement of its science department. So you have to do what you have to do.

47:14 Really? And their idea is that humans should be able to regenerate their limbs. And, you know, and the egg problem with that of like well we have to stay ahead we're we're on top we want to be on It's informative and it's why I think what you do with your podcast is awesome because people can really get into the thinking about things, right? that you have to smush something into, like a four-minute segment on CNN or something.

49:33 that's like, that's not true! Like, you should have the best version. They can't just talk about what they do and how they do it and decisions that maybe they made that were uncomfortable. I'm going to give you the story of him. OK, so here's this guy. But the guys on the ground okay? I mean, they get shot, they bandage themselves up there. You know, they're up in

52:21 He was out. We need you. and he said i'm gonna wind up being one of those old guys drinking beer at the end of the bar he's got certificates and awards and medals all over the walls of his home, So that's how a reporter works. You get introduced to enough of his friends, enough of the others who are And they adopted the term from the Reagan era. a story of a woman sitting on a bench you know in embracing a man right and no one thought anything of it and it allowed her to spy on

56:29 Like, I would take that over a cubicle every day of the week. what the hell is it called with um the fuck's that show called that the the homeland yes yes It's an appreciation of the assassin. You're a plaque. Jamie, I'm going to get you a knife. It's an appreciation of the assassin. Well, that's Thoreau's quote, How do you think they get stuck there?

58:26 Well, your options are severely limited the more you gather responsibilities. And the safe path leaves you stuck in quiet desperation almost every time. trying to be an author and you're gonna you're gonna if you're gonna try to be an author and i mean people in these military environments that I write about and in these intelligence world environments, fate and circumstance plays a big part because they too can even get complacent.

1:01:11 There's no question about it. i'm not you're not tell me i want to hear what you believe i think there's a lot of people that Just like some people He has a big heart? or steroids But what was my point? I think people get feelings. I think sometimes you think about someone they call you and i don't entanglement between you and someone you spent time with or shared energy with it's possible

1:04:01 they grew up i mean and it's it's all a little sneaky shit. interpersonal relationships the way they communicate with people was like an agent like a fake hollywood She thinks she's going to talk to her husband. everything worked out horribly for her it always did like if like you were really psychic you would this and i had a vision of that and it was all visions and dreams and psychics but everything

1:06:46 And, you know, the most interesting- and i saw that i was doing some research in an archive and i came across a photo of Okay, there he is. He'll be like, hey, bro, this way. That's where you walked. mystery of the moon's creation the origin story right so they had So they had like all this pressure. They couldn't find it. They missed the crater by like 900 feet or something.

1:08:52 was a psychic change, right? that we spoke of as being sort of charlatanism. And that comes from like, he was so vilified by the scientists and by the astronauts and by the kind of military men. What experiments? Right? Okay, okay. Anyway, sorry. Like there would be a veil between us and I would say, what are you seeing? sadness around all of it with ed mitchell sitting there in his um you know his chair and uh talking

1:12:41 And so he was so much more famous than any of them would ever be. It was really interesting because didn't he claim that he had seen something while he was up in space? which is always a narrative that I find fascinating, right? Did he say anything about, see if he said anything about seeing a ufo or seeing extraterrestrial decades later how vivid the stars were and how incredible it was out there with no atmosphere

1:16:07 become one of those has-beens, right? So his cover later became Just Another Old Man, He wore like, you know, those socks And there he is running around Sudan. They say, hey, thanks for going to the moon. wonder that like can the president be like i demand to know about this yeah and then can they Like, no, you can't do that. And the curiosity factor would be outrageous.

1:19:28 It's like, I want to know about that. I just want to find out about the aliens. They had Wernher von Braun run NASA. prosecute him for crimes against humanity yes they would and that was the head of nasa that was the But that goes back to our discussion earlier about being in pole position. I love Jews. I mean, there were guys that we grabbed out of the docks at Nuremberg literally to come be part of our program. One of these guys- Darrell Bock

1:22:27 And that was so shocking writing that book any of that stuff they have entire german towns down in argentina right they do oktoberfest down Oh my God. I mean, you just put those words together and your mind goes really dark, right? And he's the only one we got out of here and guess where he went argentina and lived out the rest of his life there the the show was called finding hitler

1:25:01 People, I mean, just last night I was at a book Giving a signing He cloned himself out to linda yeah i mean she but you know she broke the story that's what's amazing i mean as What? would crush you financially we actually had this very same discussion yesterday with my friend phil she was exposing this exposing nazis twenty five thousand dollars do you assholes like you she

1:28:04 No. I went to Germany. real access to stuff and was and competition right as a concept because this is what america does to be the best and also You know, he was a bad dude. He had a huge dueling scar. Did they do it to the death? Oh, I guess that was the gentleman's rules. wow so imagine like wanted to have these scars that was a jesus christ oh they had

1:31:53 that's crazy. Yeah. Sorry. Black Forest. I had to take like a taxi through the mountains, up over the hill, down through the valley, but had left the profession to cure people with flowers. It's called Bach flower therapy. I had information from the German archives about his father that he did not have. What does that mean? telling me what he knows. And then as I'm getting ready to leave, he says to me, I'd like you to

1:35:46 And I was like, I can't have them. Oh, Jesus Christ. Like, this is illegal. Joe, I was sweating almost as hard as I was sweating at the beginning of this interview. Lucky you didn't go through Israel. so much power to this design that you can't even see it it used to be there's a um there's a temple not after your show what do you have four million viewers probably right but people don't think

1:39:04 There he is. Jesus. The guy who... gas the jews and he was a jew i mean i you know then when So what you get from food, from vegetables, like that nitrogen, 50% of it at least, is coming from this guy's method who was a scientist, who was a Jew, who was working in Germany before it became Nazi Germany, and then was the guy who figured out how to use gas on people.

1:41:57 I mean, Nazi Germany is like the pole position taken way too far, right? that kind of influence that someone has where they can do that in front of thousands and thousands that you could, you talked about between world war ii world war one and world war ii could could completely become and horrific times in our history when you because it's it's one of the one of the more horrific ones

1:44:45 the one that scares us the most scares me the most is world war ii do you think those scientists when I don't know. like just a few months ago. They all have different stories.'s it's one of them you know you write a book about man named Otto Ambrose, who became part of Operation Paperclip. And his whole family was killed at Auschwitz. Yeah. No, no.

1:48:38 And then we, because we were sort of policing Nazi Germany after it was not, you know, after the war was over. And so deals were made. I mean mean I write about all this in paperclip but that was they have very serious privacy laws in Germany. Well, I would imagine, look, if he didn't do anything, he shouldn't be responsible for what his father did.

1:50:22 During World War II. But if you go back to that, I mean, they open up a whole can of worms about reparations. My husband is amazing. because they were such lovely Aryan people, right? So my husband, having a Norwegian mom, was like, asked the lead archivist if I could come and see the worst possible where they would, they wanted to see at what temperature humans actually death, right? Because they were trying to develop programs where they would,

1:53:13 These people aren't people. And so I think when it all comes around full circle to all these government programs I write about, is that idea of an evil enemy, right? Right, yes. And he said, Okay, he's stupid. Maybe he's not the world's greatest reader. I get bummed out when someone reads a book. I mean, because you really also feel like later on down the road you connect with people.

1:56:06 in there right this is not government propaganda right um and i can relate to this and i can hopefully i don't want to say trust but i can recognize an authenticity right yes of And what that means is everyone gets what they deserve. There's what you're responsible for. i mean people people just read and read and read about world war ii for good reason you know and

1:58:36 But we must, we, the government's position, whether it's Pentagon, CIA, is always we have to stay ahead And there's, you know, we could look at North Korea right now. Yeah. that you don't hear nothing about and your kids will hear about well we maybe when you think about protecting us all kinds of information. It's fascinating to look at those documents and realize like,

2:02:19 Do you try to look at the hidden mechanisms behind the scenes? know, maybe it's my personality, but I actually take comfort in the fact that what is happening And you can always be creating those vast weapon systems of the future for the next war that comes along. for darpa i mean this stuff is way artificial brain trying to create a system you know a free thinking system and what his name

2:05:28 you know, facial recognition software hat on, just by the way I walk, right? And he said, if she couldn't, there would be something And pretty soon that's going to be a big issue. And they probably can. It's the – This is a... I'll read this thing that's... DARPA-funded program to develop electronic neuromorphic machine technology Robot cats coming to get us.

2:08:16 which is what they were doing. called it's a large moth and science darpa scientists put brain chips into the larva, okay, so that when it cocooned and became a flying moth, it had the chip built into its system, making it easier to integrate, and they could fly the moth around the lab. And they said, well, it's not actually And that's their premise.

2:10:39 biohybrid stuff and this is the first thing that popped up was this uh shrimp article yeah it says Robotic platforms with a focus on untethered mobility, maneuverability, and dexterity. To achieve this goal, shrimp will also provide foundational research Yeah, right. but the search and rescue thing is a it's a great sort of you know way in which to present

2:12:36 Yeah, they're trying to kill people. We want our guys on the ground. I'm stopping to do this. I'm going to die. And where my research took me to was the group that wants that is what's called the Defense Science Board. And that's exactly what Eisenhower warned us of in his farewell speech, you know, the military-industrial complex. companies are struggling to try to keep up with huawei and these one fc or uh one um what is the One ST What is that one What is that big company

2:16:41 You press a button and it slides out of the top fastest supercomputer but they had it for a couple years and think about this okay because you were And he, because he was a brilliant polymath, he could add faster than anyone around him. That was his prediction. we're the ones who are your progenitors yeah that's it that's our baby we're gonna make that

2:19:43 Van has always been a warring animal, right? Interesting. civilian casualties drones are one of the worst invention ever in human history if we really Right. 3%? That's not true. I mean, people don't even realize we're still 7,000. have to find well you got to really look hard to get that statistic there's an inspector general are these are these threats real and must they be dealt with? Well, it's very hard for people to be 100%

2:24:49 It seems it's a part of what people do. Everything is connected. I mean, they convinced Google to go over there. are reading they're reading us of course you know anything i mean there's nothing that makes us look showed something like reason on why the strikes, things have changed Instead of having the same sort of oversight Okay. 9-11 i mean when whenever we get attacked it's like pearl harbor you know suddenly there is a

2:29:14 And that's where the drones became such a big issue On the other hand, do you really want the Pentagon dropping 7,400, 300, 200 bombs on Afghanistan in any given year? It's just that those plans get sent up the chain of command, and then it comes back. They were like, no way, we are not doing this, according to Billy Wah. And discuss it with your children, you know.

2:32:28 That's the only thing saving a person like me. This is the information we have. But I think that that's inevitable. No. So DARPA sets up this station at the top of the world to monitor the Soviet launch so we would have some kind of a jump on this. and the guys that are sitting there in the station my God, should we launch? Should we launch? Sleeman's like,

2:35:57 And lo and behold, what was there? I mean, and it's an astonishing story. Thank you for everything. on Instagram thank you