Joe Rogan Experience #1393 — Chris Kresser Transcript

Transcript

0:00 All right, here we go. Yeah, I'm one of two producers. that's been misrepresented right so even before the film came out people are like oh there's this you know people say oh you cherry picked one location it was the only known gladiator burial But if you wouldn't mind, I just want to make sure that Chris, for it right yeah fair to say and then someone can claim that that's cherry-picked because

3:09 bias potential. And there's interventional trials, right? So let's just take trans fats, Is that fair? Not necessarily because there are meta-analyses and reviews that are built for this purpose to look at the totality of evidence. I didn't go to a dentist. Chris is someone that I might want to go to. Okay. No, I wouldn't necessarily agree on the recommendations.

5:40 Well, this was my point before. because the the main question here in my mind is whether there is evidence that supports inferred connection no there was not to what was the connection the connection cigarettes was that So they pay for studies. to show like, hey, smoking is good. That was the parallel that we drew. We never drew the parallel every critique so basically the consensus and you're saying they're changing over time they

8:49 But the thing about this section of the film was you were making some sort of a correlation between cigarettes and— You're connecting something that clearly causes cancer, cigarettes, and these studies that were made to show people that it didn't. I do. in their individual fields the lead delegate of urology for the American Medical Association, because that's just not true.

10:46 But this is something that's actually recently been established by mainstream medicine. connection that you made with cigarettes section totally that we talked about, If not, I've got your slide. I thought Chris just made a bunch of mistakes interpreting the data. So you see what he's putting quotes okay 84 percent of meta-analyses on dairy Totally.

14:40 with dairy consumption and 24 showed an increased risk of cancers with Okay? and half didn't right that's still not a compelling argument that dairy is associated with cancer okay You follow? 13% shows decreased risk. is 71% plus 16%, no evidence or a decreased risk Or inverse association 3% shows increased risk on this one study. things to find that total cancer was increased right but we just we know that as research shows this included did it not industry funded research um two-thirds of research is

18:49 You'd agree with that? there's a huge because you made a very misleading claim well no it's not at all misleading if you What we're looking for is evidence of it causing cancer. I would say that if you wanted to say Versus 87%. Let's throw out no evidence. You're claiming that all of them are industry-funded that they're going to sway the results to the point where these findings aren't valid.

22:20 that we can look at. I mean, basically, you've got sitting here… That's a misleading statement. not true based on epidemiology if you have 10 studies that show no association and 10 that you know sedentary lifestyle there's a lot of factors so that would if you had something that was causing cancer if you had 100 studies and 70 of those studies showed an increased risk of cancer wouldn't you say that thing causes cancer

25:49 But you would agree there's most likely a connection, right? that doesn't give you cancer. or at least making this correlation between consumption of dairy products and cancer. look at slide uh 113 prostate cancer was that's disturbing so it's 50 50 with dairy consumption So just so, in this metronome that you point to, So you brought this study up because Dr. Walter Willett, who is the chair of nutrition at Harvard,

28:48 Like I know more about boxing, kickboxing, jujitsu and wrestling. You have half studies showing an association, half studies showing no association, not to mention the fact that that's, as you just just said that even if there was a strong correlation dairy and metabolic issues and saturated fat and metabolic issues. studies saying no that's not a clear signal and it's definitely not evidence of a causal

30:58 Hold on. where two-thirds of people are intolerant to something, there's no association in most cases and an inverse association in other cases. It's not dairy gives anyone cancer. or gastrointestinal disorder you start farting and that's what happens when people are lactose That doesn't make sense. doesn't seem to hold up in the literature. choose to interview them in the film. No, actually, we did interview some that I can tell you about in

35:14 You chose probably one of the few that would agree with the idea that humans primarily ate a plant, you know, exclusively plant-based diet for most of human evolution. I want to go back a second. the Game Changers is the first documentary that has ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency for the Department of Defense. They've been evaluated.

37:25 that's ever been accredited And is this proven? that just hasn't happened before because they didn't come into it thinking this is a vegan with these kinds of films it's not a choice between a standard american diet crappy processed It doesn't have to be all or nothing. doesn't support that but i mean we're saying i can what is lactose intolerant if you're intolerant

40:57 fermented dairy products like kefir, no lactose. So while I agree with what you're saying, I mean, you can't have it both ways. burden of proof if you're claiming that a food is bad for you the burden of proof is on you to show studies um the the first found that increasing red meat consumption by replacing carbohydrates that's one study. And then there's another one, another RCT in women with anemia inflammation

44:38 of eating chlorophyll-rich green vegetables decreases the formation of nitroso compounds with meat we have lots of But that's one mechanism. what a lot of the more recent studies are showing. When you look at the diet pattern and diet quality or high cholesterol or heart disease or all these different factors, but they're lumped in together because this is meat consumption.

47:15 he took two groups and he advised them all to basically eat a healthy diet. I think that slow and steady state athletes can do. called seven things seven reasons you should be cautious i'm not saying i'm not low a low who holds the world record literature, it's either less than 30% or the next slide, Jamie, less than 40%. Like if you look moderate carb and high carb in my work with patients and my recommendation did you not

50:25 moderate carb and high carb? what's safe or not safe. What did I misrepresent in the film? But when you say scientific consensus, how many different scientists were polled on this? Well, consider Virta Health, who uses, you know, the folks at Virta, who are all scientists, MDs. I agree So that's where my recommendations are that's where my recommendation is based on

53:17 in order to get into ketosis, you have to have a low number of carbohydrates. So why are you now all of a sudden advocating only low-carb diets for losing body fat? It's one way, yeah, sure. so is the nutrivor diet. No, I did wonder. Why am I here? actually not true it's not it's not true in in other countries it's not true when you let them you read a forest plot yes or no i don't what does that mean that's basically looking at the

57:18 conclusion of study which he didn't put up on the screen okay and then the quote i put up was with whereas no association was found between cardiovascular disease and non-heme iron intake or total iron intake. And you can look at the conclusions in three of the studies. I think you were being a bit misleading. when you have a point of view and you're trying to work it backwards, what you end up doing is

1:00:19 what you tried to infer from that was that the american diet that includes a bunch of junk food look at the outcomes do you agree with what he just said i do that heme iron i think that plant and the highly bioavailable protein it's not like red meat is only there to cause there's definitely bio variability and i think different people have different requirements

1:02:46 And I think there's a lot. and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. That's all plant-based. And a lot of vegans and vegetarians, just because you're vegan or vegetarian doesn't mean you're talking about buns and bread and yeah all the bullshit and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches that's all plant-based a lot of vegans and vegetarians just because you're vegan vegetarian

1:03:34 diet is the Let's talk about that because that's one of the things you brought up. The difference between the protein content in elk per ounce they compare a plant-based diet with a standard crop western diet no i agree that's that's not a mechanisms were mentioned new 5gc tmao heme iron and so i brought those up in you know to respond i can read it out if you want go ahead please uh b12 is this and if you disagree with what you were

1:06:50 And you said, that's just all false. so you misrepresented what i said you you made out the key claims you made james is that as pot it was pot used to be possible even farm animals can you put slide uh 44 please jamie i said even farm animals have to be given the only reason you get B12 from eating animal products Everything that I said about B12, you said was absolutely false.

1:09:57 and ignored the huge amount of literature so but you brought up cattle bivalves and other yeah no certainly there's some yeah but that's Okay, sorry, for people just listening. Correct. If I said that I've got your cattle, That's all just factually wrong. Okay. It's not only that. where is the evidence that that that rivers and streams and dirt has been a primary source

1:13:59 Sure. Thus, strict vegetarians who do not practice hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be untroubled by vitamin B12 deficiency. What he said in the statement was that the reason why we no longer have B12 in the water and in the soil norton said that you should probably have gotten a phd i think well i don't think that's the case There are also B12 analogs

1:16:30 and they're just pouring this dried out shit into a bucket these animals are not grazing and they're in the omnivorous you're getting it from someone who supplements it in the feed of the animal i said that there's no evidence that humans primarily got their b12 from eating from soil These are modern vegans, right? And up to 39% of people tested, including meat eaters, are low in B12.

1:19:47 about B12. Okay. So can we just go into your study? Sorry, your ebook on B12. You basically No disagreement that B12 deficiency is an issue. one is do omnivores get b12 deficiency yes they do okay and 40 people tested in this study which You said that at the beginning. Well, in California, acupuncturists have a four-year master's program, that even more people were deficient right now i'm not arguing that three four hundred might be deficient so that would mean that even

1:23:22 that you got wrong out of the five and you are the one And nearly all of the people that were… No, I agree. I agree. You linked to an article from the USDA about the study. the safest way to get b12 is to take a supplement now chris the point is that you are saying that um where was There's other factors that inhibit the absorption. You say, well, you can just spend $60 and get a blood test.

1:27:21 And homocysteine is also a more sensitive marker than serum B12. Okay. is b12 depletion among uh omnivores vegetarians and vegans uh vegans now we got to remember that Depleted. the data that he uses. And this is where I go back to the fact that it's about the interpretation of the totality of but so you i'm showing you handpicked a study from 16 years ago slide 56 from uh and this is for a newer study from 2018 with twice the sample size uh of the

1:30:46 and these are runners yeah and recreational runners recreational runners yeah all three And consensus recommendations, after you get over 50, you have lower intrinsic. So you could, yeah, exactly. It's a good thing to supplement, period. I'm saying that you handpicked a study where vegans were not… I see what you're saying. and chickens and that sort of stuff.

1:33:58 homocysteine being a marker of right and i am and chris i am showing that you picked a study from Listen, I've come in here... oh, what are you going to say to that debunk? uh division of the valve and that the best way to get b12 is the supplement so he got everything Right. subjects and you acquired a lot of and three thousand since, then you're Well, of course not.

1:36:29 It's the surest way to get B12, but it's not necessary for many people. you don't need a supplement then you don't need a supplement sure you're saying is that blood tests But the trick is you've got to like... I feel like I could hook a lot of people up. In some cases. supplements all of the chickens all of the chickens all of the chickens all of the chickens

1:38:45 only those are vegetarian chickens that's not what they want to eat what they want to eat is worms No, we're not going to miss it. like a three hour debunk, Okay, let's get into the protein. I really appreciate you issues are there's still so also just the red meat and dairy thing outstanding too oh whether sometimes things uh that provide uh inflammation yeah yeah your body has a a positive reaction

1:40:56 We'll get to that. Is there evidence that eating meat by itself is associated with cardiovascular disease? although i would be concerned about nutrient deficiencies yeah i i've never advocated for just where that's where we seem to have and tremendously could be five percent for some someone who's just eating uh mostly plant-based Okay, so you'd recognize that marks in CRP,

1:43:45 and um kangaroo meat stuff like that would be the way to go by far well it just makes sense an athlete's muscle tissue would look like a piece of elk most likely it would look very lean and Microbiota. and plant people on plant-based diets get more fiber than people in on other diets as Yeah. vegan diet compared with people on the standard american diet then they're gonna have right and

1:47:11 told to increase their fruits and vegetables. And they were told to increase their meat consumption. It came from increased plant food consumption. So that was the major benefit. you're incorporating more whole plant foods and that is the scientific consensus is to eat a predominantly plant-based diet. We don't have them. like again i've said before that we should be getting the vast majority of our calories from

1:50:31 evidence to to suggest that you know everybody most people whatever you want to say should be But you presented it yourself. which may or may not have been i didn't attribute it to the diet. I make very, very little money selling supplements, James. You do indirectly because you advise this diet. that i'm here is because and the reason that i came when joe invited me and he can probably tell

1:53:53 that you are the best person to because you say it's about the metronomy season you say it's about You said yourself you're not an expert in nutrition, interrogate you but I feel like I spent a lot of time digging into research I had the research So where were the experts that would represent that point of view? and i can get to that as well if you want because the anthropologists laughed in their faces those

1:56:57 field about that study well the neutral reg study the study that said that red meat... Yeah, it's a Nutri-Rex study. Okay. on what people should be eating, number one. When you say they, you mean the exact same company, Nutri-Rex? So Bradley Johnston is the director and co-founder of Nutri-Rex in the uh annals when you say they you mean the exact same so that well so it was so

1:58:40 do you think that the so let me tell you something okay the of our email I'll tell you who they were paid by. other things you run a successful business consulting people selling stuff i get you then you've also got to accept the 2017 study meta-analysis. First, I'm talking about the one that you cited. you see what i'm saying yeah because they took it into account each time and so when the industry

2:01:42 And you also – or if you want to make cholesterol okay, But if you go from no eggs a week to one egg a week, it does increase your – because there's something called the cholesterol plateau. again i'm not comparing the the amount of increased risk of cancer from tobacco that was never a claim Yeah, the fact, the reason I think, because like you said, you're so busy on many other

2:03:15 Okay. No, I didn't say that. That's the straw man. I said that you would really need to look at the way in which a study is designed to see if it was viable. And you also have to replicate the studies. You know, like studies have to be replicated. And so what I'm saying is, have written letters or joined in just pick up slide 93? Just to show that...

2:05:05 not required to report his past relationship with a powerful industry trade group i don't know what but why name this one as though it's got validity? present that study as evidence and life sciences at texas a&m right texas a&m is partnered with the beef checkoff program risks of red meat and they release it, you agree with the conclusion of that study,

2:07:43 inclusive those who seek to dispute it will be hard-pressed because I've got them in a Google Doc. So 2017, let's see if I can give you the title, Jamie, disease, heart disease, mortality. to the high heterogeneity observed in most of the analyses, as well as the possibility of residual Conclusion, consumption of processed meat but not red meat is associated with higher incidence of heart disease and diabetes.

2:10:58 And meta-analyses. They're not in diet for cholesterol. And you claim that we cherry picked some of them are heavily funded i would look at the whole paper and then i would look at each author and i would dig into each So you haven't been able to establish. When I spent the first thousand hours, Why didn't you point to those last time? They handpicked the studies that were including.

2:12:52 pharmaceuticals? what is the National Academy of, It could never have been found based on the methodology that they used. I'd love to go to diet quality like healthy food pattern, eating healthy- again i'm not either and which well i think there's lots of other other things but well the thing about we still haven't really Could you just bring up slide one?

2:16:26 i don't think that's what do you think the scientific consensus chris what do you think a lot of plants and whole foods, limiting, you limiting sugar and refined science this is a total fat content depending on legumes and grains i think they're they can be part of a healthy diet podcast and um you know you pointed out about these hormetic stressors that we talked about

2:19:35 people have different physical requirements different nutritional requirements but i think alone or is it bad when you're eating it with vegetables which is what we're recommending in too though okay and so he did it with protein let's go to protein before we get to that can i just show what the consensus Appropriately Planned Vegetarian Including Vegan – This is is fine this is academy of nutrition dietetics okay appropriately appropriately

2:22:12 for all stages of the life cycle, including phrase. would they have to do that right and plan that or would it just be like i think everybody agrees that you that i meant for omnivores too like here we go we want people to be thinking about what they're diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses and legumes, which again, a lot of people

2:24:44 predominantly plant-based is the way to go, So do you agree by calories then? You're not with saturated the film. then called me a lot, arguments like what do you think you would get if you had a real nutrition expert in here Right. and you suddenly take that's why we put resources that's why we put What's your position on what he said about protein?

2:28:25 Lean ground beef, meaning that for protein content. That's generally leaner. but that was what I said. I said about as much protein. Okay. So you go on to say three ounces So if he's talking about what he does advocate for, that does make sense. no protein at all right they think you know people think that plants have no protein the first You would use two pieces of bread and a peanut butter sandwich?

2:31:20 Okay. other sites. So there was something that started where people started saying you need five tablespoons when you actually measure a real tablespoon, White bread would be more like two or three grams. bit in parentheses about without the two pieces of bread so you take five tablespoons of peanut has 22 grams but that's maybe a little bit more than the other argument was the quality of the

2:34:11 Yeah, I'm just going to show it. I'm going to back up what I said in the film. So I don't know where you get the numbers from, but I went to the USDA site. um and again i'm being very conservative on this like in the amounts so now we look at lentils Yeah, if we're talking about quantity of... Okay. in the peanut butter sandwich what I have presented

2:36:24 that had more So I'm being really conservative Yeah, well, I talked about it in the podcast. Three ounces. slide 11 three ounces this is on the very low end so this would probably be the fattiest meat but Okay, so peanut butter sandwich, 18 grams. So it's essentially saying exactly what you said. to slide it was actually the more important point because I'm not necessarily you know that may not

2:39:14 So slide 15, peanut butter sandwich and try and compare those even though we were right on the protein now like the animal fat is bad, right? than there was in the green beef. And then the the last no not the last one yeah we could have picked can I just prove it at one point? to get the same amount of protein. you don't have to have five tablespoons right thank you okay and then you also said that you don't have to have five tablespoons. Right. Thank you. Okay. And then you also said that you'd have to have so many calories that you couldn't get it, and you were wrong again.

2:41:48 coming. So this is from your site, 18 grams of and leek omelette, the protein coming from eggs, 18 grams of protein, 410 calories. And by the way, I took your data. i don't think that people shouldn't eat it and we're talking is it low protein uh That was the average. So you can see it's about the same. to survive but not to be an athlete so i'm going to look at i don't think that was his point i think

2:45:00 Therefore, they get more protein as a percentage. I agree with that and have it in my notes. From the big square. how did I do that oh okay either way 2.2. Okay, so you can see as the chart goes up and then it flattens out, thing that you hear in a gym one gram per pound of body it's probably just no that's legit that's amounts may be beneficial so if you go to uh jamie if you search for examine.com

2:49:10 or if you just click on that, you see in that paragraph, It's totally accepted in the sports world, whatever. muscle mass but if you're trying to lean out and that's also the case with those carnivore people and a lot of keto people as well right So if you're 200 pounds and you've got 20% body fat, you only weigh 160 pounds for this calculation. Good.

2:52:01 I just started, the last couple of months, So I'm not, the indicator amino acid oxidation index, I've shown that vegans can get sufficient protein. I didn't say they couldn't get enough. I said that it's less likely that they will get enough. It was a taro and bacon hash. get into the quality we certainly smash the protein quantity versus caloric uh intake right and so

2:54:36 I was like really like researching for this. made a three ratios. I started eating air-chilled chicken, but then I read the research and I wasn't has every amino acid. That's what you said. But you left off the end of my quote, which said, So people were saying, like, why did you put that in the film? DAAAS takes into consideration different individual

2:58:12 you can't digest your body doesn't absorb the protein really it's digested by the bacteria Does that make sense? And they're basically assessing how much of that protein was absorbed, right, and how much of the amino acids were absorbed. even make that argument. I'm going to go with you and say okay ds is the best thing out there okay okay so even though you can question

3:00:06 but it's basically defeating hunger, So if you can just put up slide 29, Then they go on to say, Joe, do you want to do it? The Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations has developed methods to evaluate Anyway, so I'm not going to have that argument. grams of protein a day let's just say that the animal like take the animal stuff out of it and

3:02:22 to a physically active person or athlete. It is in starving country when people are starving. this is like in sports medicine 2019 and i agree you're busy with other stuff you probably haven't Because you like to say it's all about muscle protein synthesis, right? protein okay do you disagree that like eating four or five times a day at um 20 to 25 grams of high quality protein way be whatever you want to take highest score whatever under your you know

3:05:09 I would say no. Right. You're getting 1.8 to 2 grams of leucine, to like build the muscle, basically. and we can get more granular around like it's, break down okay so so by the way just going back to your ds scoring up an article. So slide 33. And it's very clear. it doesn't matter because, yeah, Me, I put on none, because that's like, like whatever.

3:08:53 Once you hit that amount, you have to do two things. right, of 1.6 to 2.2. No, because as long as you hit the essential amino acid amount and the leucine amount in the four... supplement with protein powder anyway. They're supplementing and a higher percentage So if your goal is to do something And, like, all of a sudden, he's like, oh, you're going to…

3:11:14 It's not difficult at all. supplement b12 nothing else you can achieve the same amino acid profile as meat yeah i mean i Okay. and that is what it's important it's important when you look at the FAO and the goals that they're doing to try and stop world hunger. If you're getting 2.2 grams of protein and you're doing it and you're not doing it in the way that you said where you're not planning it and not making sure you're getting enough leucine, which is lower.

3:13:44 So it doesn't matter once you've got that amount. Even if there are enough amino acids, you can't digest it as well. The more precise data collected so far in humans assessing real specific oral ileal nitrogen digestibility one of the reasons that it's less digestible is because of trypsin inhibitors yeah what happens you might even get more, because you're killing

3:16:08 long time yeah i think it's amazing points chris this has not been that good for your arguments which was, is there evidence that a hundred percent and haven't had a chance to go into detail on in this show. quality and quantity still matter the quality the the quality okay yeah sure sure in both favor of quantity and quality. this is not me. Yeah.

3:19:17 I think it's ridiculous. It's very tricky because you don't have them out of time. and we didn't put them in because there wasn't room it was like i understand in filmmaking it's Yeah, but I think like how many people are going to sit down? um here we go there's no research to suggest that protein recommendations are different for athletes following a vegetarian diet than for those on an omnivorous diet.

3:21:27 Let's get to that. Can we take endothelial function? Okay, endothelial function. So that's 22 years. —two hash browns, and a non-caffeinated drink, all a sausage McMuffin. I'm not talking about those. Two hash browns and a non-caffeinated drink all from McDonald's. eliminated the effect that it had on endothelial function, which suggests that a healthy omnivorous

3:24:24 2007 study with uh damage seafood is an animal protein mediterranean diet which includes animal products improves bunch of studies especially those suggesting here's one that says influence of food patterns Okay, well, let's let him explain his studies. meal, See, between two and four hours, it kind of peaks. your arteries to expand goes down. And there's no, like what, that's not an egg McMuffin.

3:28:56 So, I don't know if you want to go into, but basically, I mean, you've slide 74. Well, low-carb diets often will lower serum triglycerides, and they contain animal protein and fat. Not postprandially. Then how is it that triglycerides go down over time and this may pave the way for the development of arthrosclerosis. Under acute thing, that we looked at

3:30:36 It was just this crazy thing that they made up. percent the carbohydrate restricted group and decreased from 7.9 percent to 5.2 percent in the show that that dietary proteins including milk and egg improve endothelial function no they don't No, it says including milk and egg. These were proteins that included soy, soy, milk, and egg, and they all improved endothelial function.

3:33:30 The three times increased risk for those who had white meat like fish or chicken once or twice a week. Like, if protein impairs endothelial function, why are studies showing that milk and egg don't do that george dillman george dillman did a study you know showing that like I have proven again and again that your points were invalid. recommendations not on definition of carbohydrates not on uh endothelial function not on heme iron

3:36:07 That's what people think. Yeah, but it's the same thing with climate change or whatever. I've shown that the quality DS scoring doesn't matter. output, equivalent time to fatigue, despite lower creatine levels. And we know that creatine is which are performance enhancing, they still have equivocal fat-free mass, muscle, and help uh muscle muscle yeah okay fair enough so despite lower creatine people on plant-based

3:39:14 because they eat a bunch of shit. plants well he's saying that you lump in meat eaters with people that eat the standard american group of them versus the people that are doing it as recommended by these studies that are showing It gives all the references. i felt chris felt the same way having you in here while he debunked it was just going to be a waste

3:41:53 I really appreciate you having me on. Okay. like part two.