Joe Rogan Experience #1551 — Paul Saladino Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. that i eat only meat and they're like well you know if you eat too much meat it causes colon So, like, when I tell people I eat mostly meat, Just steal what they're saying. they'll start to appreciate this. Well, how about people who collect mushrooms? But the point is, most of these things you see are not edible. about the timeline of life on Earth, 500 plus million years of plant and animal co-evolution.

3:09 during our evolution. But there's a real interesting interaction here. This is warfare. They can't run away from us. prove they're good for us? There's a whole different part of the story. What if we think about it from to eat some of them because there's this thing and and i know you've discussed this as well Is that possible with plants? up with these terms, environmental hormesis and molecular hormesis. I'll grab your book. It's right here. Molecular hormesis is broadly termed xenohormesis by some people. Xeno is this Latin

6:25 or when you exercise, you do generate reactive oxygen species, superoxide radicals, and they with the loss of electrons being oxidation, the protein. And we know these can be damaging for humans. One of the reasons that cigarette we'll be dead. That oxidative stress turns on NRF2. Molecular hormesis is a little different. It's like going to the pharmacy and taking a medicine.

9:02 glucose tolerance, and they can affect sympathetic It triggers this antioxidant response system. And Ron has talked about this. There's an enzyme called myrosinase It's going to be a pro-oxidant, right? and it inhibits iodine absorption at the level of the thyroid. There's an endemic goiter. It's saying, if you eat too much of me, I'm going to affect your thyroid negatively,

12:35 You can go in the sauna. one of them, which is glutathione, to mitigate these newly And then we're getting all of the downstream negative side effects of these plant molecules And at the end, they see no differences in the oxidative stress markers, or cabbage or any of these other vegetables compared to a group that eats none of them. But what about the vitamins that you're getting from plants? I mean, there are essential nutrients

15:58 K2, choline, carnosine, carnitine, anserine, taurine. The list is extremely long, but you can't say the same And they had them take different amounts of vitamin C to see how long it would take to 10 milligrams a day. There was 10 milligrams of vitamin C will prevent scurvy. which is the main thing that gets broken when we see scurvy, or at least that's the physical

18:08 So it's a little bit more than 10. about things in terms of oxidative stress, that happens pretty quickly. You would definitely, Really? So one more table down. of vitamin C in the blood, there's an association with better outcomes. But when we do interventional is that taking it while you have the cold Maybe while you have it. Okay. So if you have a cold, your vitamin C level is going to be lower.

22:15 Yeah. It's eating organ meats because most people, when they think of eating animal products, just eating the muscle meat and they had to start incorporating organs in their diet. And one of the ways he tricked these wolves into thinking that he was the alpha was he don't eat much as westernized humans, but kidneys are prized. I mean, so there was this really

24:41 The skin and subcutaneous fat of the warthog, A lean cow skin will be saved for rawhide and leather. You ever had brain? And I found it so strange. that when they were taking the desiccated organ supplements, they had a rush of energy. But I haven't. And yeah, I've heard of indigenous cultures using the gallbladder as a condiment. I've eaten a lot of the animal,

27:18 Yeah. So I hunted in January. It could be just coagulated bile. Pulverizes it. Yeah, we ate a lot of gizzards when I was a kid. I brought some. He already started making noises. Anchorman. This is from grass-fed, grass-finished, regeneratively raised cows from White Oak Pastures in Georgia. that they couldn't even touch it with human hands. much of it can i actually preserve in terms of nutrients and do i feel differently when i eat it

30:20 I find that so fascinating, those cave art, cave paintings. Pickled, even. Foie gras is not good? Yeah. I'm not in favor of giving them food they're not supposed to eat. But if you alter the food, and we know this with humans, you can alter food in some ways to make it more palatable and to kind of short circuit the satiety mechanisms. Yeah. And you're making them open their mouth.

33:41 you can't get as far anymore and i'm like well listen guys you got you're not making any sense like this is one small moment of this duck's day where they're feeding meat and this regenerative agriculture concept but is it sustainable in at scale though like could you still have jack-in-the-box if you the reason they have all that intramuscular fat is because they are less metabolically healthy

35:50 for 85% of their lives. animals and feedlots, we can graze cattle there. And then there's actually, I believe it's called and deer and pronghorn had the richest soil anywhere until we monocropped it. So I was in Georgia recently at Bluffton at White Oak doing photographs for a And if you look at the soil content of carbon, it's 0.5%. They make manure.

38:48 and live in that area a million acres of soybeans, which always happens in some remote, faraway land, animal because now they're subsidizing people to grow corn that is mostly in a lot of like i have tit of corn get people off the tit of these monocrop you know monocrop, you know, monocrop agriculture, we would be a healthier country. If we can have these

41:47 Before the podcast, I was telling you about a ranch in Fredericksburg called Rome Ranch. Why are you doing that, man? It was just kind of like this. This is land that used to be fertile in southern Texas that was destroyed. you can stand right next to? but you can stand next to the bison. if you move it out 20 years, We should go there and we should make a video.

43:58 Well, we go out there with Katie and Taylor who own the farm and take care of it. really interesting is that book empire of the Summer Moon, right? Yes, yes. Fantastic book. But they really didn't eat much else. They ate a little bit of berries here have utilized the fat burning systems in our body. But if we go long enough without ever using the hybrid, you know, fat burning engine,

46:21 And how is that – everybody that I know that's done it has lost weight. It is. There's a lot of compelling data in both, at least in animal models, and I believe in when you exhaust the glycogen in your liver, So within the cell, there are these, quote, powerhouse factories, which are probably ancient and it seems to happen more when you're in this state of ketosis

48:51 fasting. And so that's a beneficial thing. I mean, I think that that intermittent cellular and then can't wait to have breakfast how many people actually wake up with ketones in their blood. in spite of the fact that they favored meat and organs, they certainly would have had you know, they found that being in ketosis I agree with you. cool study. I really want to go spend time with the Hadza next year. My friend David Cho did.

52:11 It was intense. It wasn't the day that I found this huge patch of berries in modern day. There is a ton of big animals. I mean, that's a huge smorgasbord. So that is what occurs if you just eat nothing but meat It's pretty fascinating though, that your body has, it knows how to do that. And especially when I'm eating just normal, whatever I feel like eating, cheeseburger,

55:34 Like, last night I had sushi. I was like, fuck that. and I lost a lot of weight too. Yeah, spots started filling in, which is really strange. Could that model be at play on a bigger scale any flares of eczema since I've been eating a carnivore or carnivore-ish diet for the last two years, except one time when I reincorporated some plants back in my diet in an experiment with squash.

57:45 And then you stopped eating squash and went away? wrongly vilified today and we can talk about why with the epidemiology and they should be a part organs and fat. And I was in ketosis all the time, depending how much protein I had. And then I had where we can only eat so much of it. perhaps not all, with long-term ketosis, And you can always look at your blood sugar with a CGM or other metrics. What was fascinating,

1:00:50 and it stays very consistent. Yes. who's on a carnivore diet and doing really well. But he was pointing me to a bunch of evidence that again, we're moving to an animal model. But massive amounts in rats It's in their feed. Really? Well, it tastes good, too. there's a study, the Hadza fallback foods. The Hadza, both the men and the women in the Hadza

1:03:53 And the next bar is meat and then Baobab, berries, and tubers. the women will stop digging tubers for two to three days. trap that's not a real tree that one in the upper left hand corner like that looks really different fruit are fairly prevalent. Interesting. The men have higher rates of tooth decay. mouth drops. it's eaten everywhere it's available.

1:07:03 stopgap. There's a rate-limiting enzyme called look at isocaloric studies of fructose there's no evidence that they that fructose increases uric was that satiety, when you're only eating meat, you don't eat as much. You just don't. I mean, and gravy and bread, and carbohydrates. But yeah, I agree with you. But I think that the number is 10 to 20 to 100 X who might benefit from understanding that meat and organs are valuable

1:10:47 What is the species-appropriate human diet? that's where this you were talking about these negative compounds that only happen when you had to at least step in, or the USDA had to step in and have manufacturers remove apricot kernels so a lot of the foods we eat today are sort of we're stripping the toxins away from the plants he's locked into this world and and applauded and that's where he gets his love from and if you

1:14:13 ideology as well there's just there's parts to it it's a meme that poor guy looks like dog shit He's no muscle at all. that are giving advice like they're they look like shit I'm not friends with him, but I did a podcast on The Minimalist he's just talking about his own personal experiences Right, that's it. question is have you done the other thing right exactly have you eaten meat and organs and you

1:17:19 So check this out. And it's consistent with personal beliefs. Let's find it. remember reading it in the high 30s yeah it's a big number yeah and that's the ones that are willing to admit it that's the other thing about that That's a subject that we should get into, processed vegetable oils. at the bottom there's a series of graphics Oh, you don't see the row.

1:20:45 from 1940 to 2020. I mean, it is just like a fucking skateboard ramp. It is a skateboard ramp. Americans are quote eating healthy in 2018 there's 59% of Americans adhering We're exercising more, smoking less. That's diabetes prevalence. that was the first one you brought up, That's vegetable oil, man. And then if you dig into that meat as a driver, this is the 10.18.34,

1:24:04 Yeah. And then if you go back you know? Like that's certainly not, you know? And the real driver here, I suspect, is the last one, Jamie, 10.18.09. And you can see soybean is the main one, And then you can get into When fat cells get big and they don't divide, they eventually start leaking out inflammatory all of us in the Western world, if we're eating excess vegetable oils, excess polyunsaturated fats, specifically linoleic acid, we are driving a signal to our adipocytes that winter is coming.

1:27:15 Humans can't do this. If we look at cultures of indigenous people, they all have two to 3% of their calories 24%. Pork, 15 to 16% because they're fed corn and soy. Like you said earlier, if you let a pig, like if you're out hunting hogs, that hog is going to have a fat, you know, maybe 5% to 6% linoleic acid. And you can We don't have enough data to say this,

1:28:46 but then continue eating processed food and this is this has been proven and this is something that is not that widely known because was the 60s i think so yeah this is. This is the beginning of it. Oh, okay, 1967 review of sugar, fat, and heart disease. and got everybody to eat margarine. we got some raw liver for you said that it that it was going to give you a thing.

1:30:56 Nope. We need a little Traeger in here. Into my diet every single day That a lot of people dry them at like 38 degrees preserve most of the nutrients put them in a capsule it's amazing and Yeah. put into pills? what's so cool is you know when you hear about these desiccated organs you think that's not She like opens it in the food for my niece and nephew.

1:33:18 the capsules are better for people and it's portable and it's easy and you can condense you head. This is made for me, I think. Yeah, the pills are made for you. I'm going to get some animals from new zealand and we're actually working really hard to develop a regenerative chain in the U.S. Rome. Oh, all right. Okay. Now, how much liver do you think I just ate there?

1:35:11 So there's a little less. fasting, but I like to do it earlier in the day. So I like to eat my dinner, quote, at three or You know, if you eat late at night, What do you do if you're on a dinner date? four times a day and do pull-ups, do some kettlebell swings, hit the punching bag for 10 Cotton from your bottle. like sometimes But I'm still getting a lot of reps in, a lot of work done.

1:37:33 I love the idea that he said when he was on your show, Are you going to crush yourself? Yeah. you know you're running an ultra you're like racing you're trying to go really hard i like He does it all the time. and tracked them to see what their cardiovascular fitness was. It just feels good for your brain too. early 1900s. There's a giant spike, a big change. Same as those other graphs. We could, it would be

1:40:33 Again, this is just correlation, but there's not even a correlation there. peroxides, which are lipids that have had an electron stolen from that double bond, because this is one of the big questions that I got and they just glaze over, and they're like, LDL and HDL, what is the difference? lipoprotein particle. It's like a bus. It moves triglycerides and cholesterol around the body

1:43:24 But a lot of these far down in the pathway. They have extremely low LDL within our body, that at the same time defends us from infection? So there are good studies model that lower levels of cholesterol predispose to infection because LDL, lower levels of serum a lipoprotein particle that serves an indispensable role what would they tell you? it's just going to kind of leak into your arterial wall because it naturally gets taken up.

1:46:55 following them moving forward, prospective, or they're looking back at what they've done in the down. So if you look at those two and you don't do anything to, this is in the lipids and CVD folder, Jamie. You see that CAC The lipid hypothesis is flawed because it's incomplete. These are the most obese, the most likely to have diabetes, the most likely to have

1:49:29 Sort of. over. But what if you just have high LDL and low HDL? Then you probably have diabetes. And in that Of LDL to HDL? Yes. I have a pretty high quote LDL. that I don't believe there's sufficient evidence to say that high LDL in somebody that's metabolically of their hibernation period. There's actually a screenshot at the bottom in the lipid CVD

1:52:45 this i've actually got a set of slides that'll probably make it clear when i talk about but Your free fatty acids are going to go up, your LDL is going to go up. He's almost ready to share it. is the notion that LDL must cause atherosclerosis de novo, or in and of itself. Because if more LDL endothelial damage. So the inside of a blood vessel is the endothelium. And something has

1:55:25 But if you look at it a little more precisely or a little more carefully, you start to separate a diet that we believe to be ancestrally consistent. Why would that kill us, right? Just say, but I just like to get my blood work done, get a little checkup. are there's about 2 000 plus genetic polymorphisms that actually result in a high ldl independent of

1:57:32 It was 533 milligrams per deciliter. Certainly the majority do. And any mainstream doctors who are hearing this are just wanting You've lost 20 pounds. myopic ldl centric perspective that excludes the contextual variables, metabolic We're taught this is the model. And if you look at it, there is evidence, there is correlational evidence that shows the lower the LDL, the lower the incidence of heart disease, but it misses the

1:59:41 So I'll finish my story because I talked about my super high LDL. Your LDL is high. don't check fasting insulin or hemoglobin A1C or put a continuous glucose monitor on you, You can build things with it. blaze. And that's kind of a complicated analogy,ist, it's the firefighter who shows up to quell the blaze. freely. And there's potentially something about the LDelium into the subendothelial space freely.

2:02:18 So distracting for Joe. there for some reason. that these macrophages are not responding properly to LDL, Or at the level of the macrophage, saying about uh ldl and hdl is this something that you've ever debated with uh like a cardiologist I think it'd be super fun to talk to those guys and have all the studies up and stuff. So there's a lot of kind of pieces that look like the dots are connecting. It's pretty compelling.

2:04:57 I don't want to put words in their mouth, And we should not be looking at lab markers or metrics in isolation as humans. So we're very LDL-centric it is, hey, your lifestyle is causing this. I've got them both in the notes here if you want to see them. Chris Ramsden, who is the investigator on there's some interventional studies that you've said in this podcast

2:07:49 happening? Why did you lose weight? Why did your vitiligo get better? Why did you have energy for it, I think. And they're going to do CT coronary angiogram one year apart. So what's So I'm 43. He was not eating well. But I just don't think that mainstream medicine thought about this contextual stuff. Is he following your diet? He takes the desiccated organ supplements and he's eating some white rice.

2:10:32 continuous glucose monitor. And so I think that he has some room to improve, but it's slow. He their life better. But my friend Tom Segura tried it And we talked about the bile earlier in the gallbladder and, you know, And so if bile acids end up in the colon, they are cathartic, meaning they will cause diarrhea. If the bile acids move through the ileocecal valve

2:13:27 it sounded like what happened was something adjusted and eventually stopped. And my suspicion I like clenched my butt cheeks like I'm trying to make a diamond. But for a lot of people, the complete elimination of fiber in their diet is really helpful. that show that fiber doesn't relieve the other symptoms of constipation, which are pain, difficulty with passage, bleeding. Constipation

2:15:43 What? It's the, let's see. this interventional study, it completely reversed it in these people. But I thought I was doing the right thing, and I was feeling pretty good while I was You just want to clean them out. Yeah, that's, I was like, this has got to be good. It's cleaning out the old pipes. Because that's what you want, right? You just want to clean them out.

2:17:45 to the people I shared an office with There's only so many farts you can hold in of muscle mass and all kinds of other issues. How did you feel? Right. The ideas are interesting, right? Right. Yeah. and he thinks it's a good thing for his health and for his body I think that the first thing is I'm glad that he's making an intentional choice with his diet.

2:20:32 the right measures which may give him some indication of atherosclerosis progression. Or they're gonna eat these plant-based garbage burgers, That's amazing. Yeah. only in animal foods we'll give him some of these he probably won't take them maybe he would maybe he would take the pills yeah but if you could get him to just completely objectively learn and not

2:21:54 the optimal thing to eat? you're going to thrive. And I think you're going to feel really good. Now, we're at a crossroads, And they're getting injured and they're not recovering well people go, I think you can be healthy and you can even though they absolutely are. A kinder person, empathetic person. It's somebody else's handle. Maybe you even spend time in the wilderness

2:24:40 walking up to that animal was one of the most But if more people did this, and this is not necessarily scalable in 2020, but I think if more people did this, it's like a sacrament. And I don't mean that in any sacrilegious way, but it was just like, it was one of the most clarifying things I've ever done to remind me, be a good person. It's disgusting.

2:26:26 mountains to find a mule deer and to shoot it and then to haul it out of there and then to cut it up When I take a piece of elk meat, I shot an elk last week in Utah. And hundreds of pounds of meat, I'm going to give it to my friends. But there's a lot of things that everybody, not everybody becomes a black belt in jujitsu, that I'm doing so that I have endurance in the mountains.

2:29:18 your best. It's not easy. But it can be done. are very rewarding and most of those things come with like there's there's a immense satisfaction And like you said, every time you eat, you have a story. that there's this broad amnesia. And I've thought about this and kind of called it the remembering, to get with Steve Rinella over a fire. I'm a hunter.

2:32:11 That was 2012. It was a big fight about to go on. drawing back, pulling with the scapula, getting a surprise release. And I just got a new release. This one is a wise choice. What people don't understand what we're talking about is it's hard in the moment of truth to, He's one of the best archers on earth. He wins world championships and he pulls the trigger.

2:34:58 Really, a lot of people cheat. of drops away and i'll tell you joe for people that haven't bow hunted i've actually never waterhole here and he was trotting down and there was no, I tried a couple spots, but there was no as he was looking at me and he was just because i'm in full camera with gloves face mask head He steps away from the waterhole. so many thousands and thousands and thousands of arrows,

2:37:44 It's like such a cool thing to have the story wrapped up in all of it. And just, just hiking alone is cleansing, right? that it's this crazy natural beauty, this natural artwork, I think that's what the remembering is about. But there's something about it when you're in a car, you're just, you know, you're sitting But we still, I think that we would do well to consider the fact that if we discard everywhere

2:40:57 where we're part... out of our control. It might be just But it's not that way right now. And if you live that way right now, you'll be miserable. You'll be depressed. You'll to happen. I got interested in stuff. I started talking about my ideas and then suddenly you put ideas out That's ultimately, and I want to live up to that. I thought, okay, all carbohydrates are bad. Even in the last year and a half, I I've had to, you know, when I first started the carnivore diet, I thought, okay, all carbohydrates

2:43:23 I know. I think we've got to move past that and say, I love disruptive ideas. Let's find out. And I'm like, what are you talking about? A lot of people that are just there's their their physical condition is so poor and yet they're fed, grass finished meat, what is the nutritional benefit of that over in terms of like essential What's CAFOed? I think they're just trying to fatten them up.

2:47:03 first of all so the cows are full of... So they're not penalized for accidental plastic. That's their feed. Oh, yeah. 650,000 tons of unused food from loaves of bread to Mars bars It's in the soil, But this is the kind of stuff and less of the bad stuff in the fat, in my opinion. I think it's probably wishful thinking. Yeah. I mean, I think there's no shortage of reasons to eat grass-fed, grass-finished meat.

2:49:43 Maybe, yeah. And you see the same thing in fish too. Yeah. fat in a beef steak could running from mountain lions and wolves. There's something about that dark red gold, that rich meat, that when you eat it, it's just like, whoo! Well, acetylcholine is a nootropic and it's one of the ingredients in alpha brain. Is that the That's why, that's why I'm bringing it up.

2:52:50 Oh yeah. Maybe straightforward So Jamie, in the folder nutrients, there's one called creatine enhanced veggie. So let's say consumed either a placebo or 20 grams of creatine supplement for five days. It's creatine DRBP. from more. There's a place at which you can saturate your muscles with creatine. It's about water though i think was why people like your muscles are getting larger because of that i

2:55:45 You know, we didn't talk about it today. You can just go as long as you need to make your point. But some of the most compelling, in my opinion, are around the advent of hunting in humans. that I labeled in the graph becoming hunters made us human. factors too, right? Well, I mean, other people hypothesize, some people hypothesize fire. The or at least the calories are.

2:58:03 I've never tried it. Absolutely possible as well. I want to do it again, but I think about it set in setting and kind of respectfully. And it was just me and the wilderness. I felt so at home in the wilderness. And so, you know, plants as medicine. and they were doing studies at NYU. I was walking through a pasture with cow pies would consume it quite a bit and what terence mckenna's research shows is that it corresponds

3:01:53 that's actually real. There's an audio. i'm definitely definitely in ketosis right now and some grass-fed bison all right uh and paul