Tristan Harris & Daniel Schmachtenberger

Date: 2021-11-18 | Duration: 3h 4m

Episode Overview

Tristan Harris and Daniel Schmachtenberger join Joe Rogan to explore the ethical challenges and societal impacts of technology, particularly focusing on social media’s role in shaping human behavior and political polarization. They discuss how platforms like Facebook use algorithms designed to maximize engagement by amplifying emotionally charged and divisive content, which has contributed to widespread misinformation and social fragmentation. Harris shares insights from his time at Google and the Center for Humane Technology, emphasizing the lack of ethical frameworks guiding persuasive technology and the urgent need for systemic change. The conversation also delves into the broader implications of exponential technologies, including AI and gene editing, highlighting the risks of decentralized access to powerful tools without adequate stewardship. Both guests stress the fragility of current democratic institutions in managing these rapid technological shifts and the difficulty governments face in regulating tech at the pace it evolves. They reflect on potential paths forward, such as redesigning civic technology to foster shared understanding and transparency, while cautioning against extremes like centralized censorship or unchecked decentralized chaos. Throughout, they underscore the necessity for collective wisdom and cultural evolution to responsibly wield the unprecedented power technology now affords humanity.

About Daniel Schmachtenberger

Daniel Schmachtenberger is a pioneering systems thinker and co-founder of The Consilience Project, an initiative dedicated to enhancing public sensemaking and fostering constructive dialogue in an increasingly complex world. With a background in neuroscience and a keen understanding of the interplay between technology and society, he is recognized for his innovative insights into existential risks and the future of civilization. Daniel’s thought-provoking ideas on the ethical implications of emerging technologies and his commitment to addressing global challenges make him a compelling voice in contemporary discourse. His recent appearance on the Joe Rogan Experience (#1736) further highlights his unique perspective on the intersection of technology, human behavior, and societal resilience.

About Tristan Harris

Tristan Harris is a prominent tech ethicist and co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology, where he champions a more ethical approach to technology design. With a background in computer science and a deep commitment to social impact, Harris has become a leading voice in advocating for humane tech solutions that prioritize human well-being over profit. He co-hosts the podcast "Your Undivided Attention" alongside Aza Raskin, where they explore the implications of technology on society. Known for his thought-provoking insights, Harris has gained recognition for his work in raising awareness about the ethical dilemmas posed by artificial intelligence, recently showcased in the Center's film "The A.I. Dilemma." Through his initiatives, he seeks to inspire a movement toward technology that enriches rather than detracts from our lives.

Key Moments

– Ethical Persuasion
– Social Media Algorithms
– Misinformation and Psyops
– Political Polarization
– Exponential Technology
– Censorship and Regulation
– Digital Addiction
– Decentralized Power
– AI and Automation
– National Security Threats
– Civic Technology
– Transparency in Government
– Behavioral Conditioning
– Tech Industry Influence
– Media Manipulation
– Social Resilience
– Cultural Fragmentation
– Screen Time Management
– Psychological Impact of Tech
0:00:37 – Introduction of Daniel Schmachtenberger and Tristan Harris
0:01:48 – Discussion on ethical influence in technology
0:03:08 – Concerns about persuasive tools arms race
0:07:53 – How algorithms favor engagement and dopamine
0:09:09 – Clarification on censorship and misinformation
0:12:21 – Challenges of medieval institutions in modern tech
0:15:23 – Addressing social media's societal impact
0:18:40 – Lawmakers' understanding of tech issues
0:22:02 – Simplification of complex political narratives
0:24:27 – Troll farms' influence on Native American pages
0:27:14 – Algorithmic amplification of divisive content
0:31:54 – AI's rapid advancement and accessibility
0:34:59 – Gene editing and cyber weapon concerns
0:36:22 – Connecting social media to broader tech problems
0:39:47 – Decentralized power without wisdom risks
0:44:08 – China's approach to internet regulation
0:48:10 – Polarized political base and election dynamics
0:53:04 – Decreasing shared sense of reality
0:56:35 – Using technology to strengthen democracy
1:02:16 – Corporate competition with exponential tech groups
1:07:04 – Critique of mainstream news narratives
1:10:15 – Influencer culture and controversy rewards
1:13:09 – Social media's externality of polarization
1:18:37 – Government regulation challenges versus tech speed
1:31:53 – Facebook as a massive AI-optimized behavior machine
1:37:11 – User control over algorithmic influence
1:39:12 – Meta-analysis on misinformation problem
1:44:03 – Public reaction to catastrophic risks
1:47:53 – Cultural capacity to steer societal direction
1:51:31 – App store control as a potential solution
2:04:54 – January 6th protest and provocateur involvement
2:14:46 – Emotional impact of political unrest
2:19:12 – Incentivizing tech leaders for societal good
2:22:36 – Changing minds through evidence and openness
2:26:20 – Anger dynamics in online communities
2:30:18 – Default mode network and behavioral grooves
2:34:15 – Promotion of long-term health solutions
2:38:38 – Wealth and influence in tech industry
2:44:03 – Societal collapse risks from tech misuse
2:49:19 – Difficulty grasping technological complexity
2:52:18 – Steve Jobs' role in tech transformation
2:54:51 – Polarization's effect on education and media
2:59:02 – Curating social media feeds for awareness
3:00:54 – Ending on a positive note about solutions

Transcript Excerpt

Starting point is 00:00:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. Starting point is 00:00:37 And I really enjoyed the conversation last year. The reason that today I'm here with Daniel Schmachtenberger, who's really a person I've learned so much from the last few years and why I thought it'd be a good through Starting point is 00:01:11 And what a weird thing that this industry that didn't exist 20 years ago has such a, Starting point is 00:01:48 how do we ethically influence people? Starting point is 00:02:23 I mean, when I was a kid, I was a magician. Starting point is 00:03:08 But I got concerned because it was all of this increasing arms race to use persuasive tools Starting point is 00:03:49 for everyone, then someone else is going to build the drone for everyone. So that's how I think. Starting point is 00:04:20 And, you know, what bothered me is that I think when people think about how do you ethically persuade people, you just get into a whole bunch of ethical cop outs, like, well, we're just giving people what they want, you know, or if they don't want this, they'll, they what they're doing. And what concerned me was that the ethical framework wasn't really there. Not that I had one at the time, by the way. I studied at Google for three Starting point is 00:05:15 Tell me. Starting point is 00:05:58 She was saying all the things that they wanted to hear, and that's why they put her in the Starting point is 00:06:41 information. I mean, you're seeing it right now in terms of one of the things that's Starting point is 00:07:16 There's no way it's not. Starting point is 00:07:53 The algorithm favors. Starting point is 00:08:06 Right. Starting point is 00:08:33 It's a hypothesis that at least is being considered by virologists. But the point is that Starting point is 00:09:09 So she's pretty clear that she's not calling for censorship. But the reason I asked you, Starting point is 00:09:43 I mean there's some things that are real conspiracy theories and there's some things th...

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Frequently asked about this episode

Who was the guest on Joe Rogan Experience #1736?

Tristan Harris & Daniel Schmachtenberger was the guest on JRE #1736. This page includes the episode overview, topics discussed, and related resources.

What topics were discussed on JRE #1736?

On Joe Rogan Experience #1736 with Tristan Harris & Daniel Schmachtenberger, topics include Ethical Persuasion, Social Media Algorithms, Misinformation and Psyops, and Political Polarization.

Where can I read the transcript for JRE #1736?

The full searchable transcript for Joe Rogan Experience #1736 with Tristan Harris & Daniel Schmachtenberger is available on this page, along with key topics and timestamps.