Joe Rogan Experience #1914 — Siddharth Kara Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. And it is out January... cobalt. Cobalt's in the batteries. It's in the Congo. The conditions are horrible. And I And so I started planning more trips and I just kept going back. and three-fourths of the supply is coming out of the Congo. and that's actually not cobalt. What does it refer to, conflict minerals? You remember that?

4:54 And it just so happens that the Congo, And they dig in absolutely subhuman, gut-wrenching conditions for a dollar a day, I mean, I'm just naming those companies. consumer-facing tech companies and EV companies buying this cobalt. It's not real. No. that their cobalt isn't coming from sources like that. that totally abundantly clear. And anyone that claims otherwise is either peddling in falsehoods or is recklessly ignorant of the truth.

9:28 No masks, no masks, no gloves, no half those guys are in flip flops. there'll be a sea of humanity digging there as well, because it's not like at the fence, Don't believe what Siddharth is saying. And demand projections are four, five, six hundred percent increase in cobalt demand in the next decade or two, primarily being driven by adoption of electric vehicles.

13:06 obviously they're aware of this. And they may throw some money at the odd NGO or coalition or alliance And not one company, not one business alliance, not one entity up the chain is doing remotely enough to ensure that the dignity and human rights of the people of the Congo, not to mention the environment, And that first trip hit me like a thunderclap. And I've seen a lot, okay? I mean, I've done research in more than 50 countries in the grit and the grime and the misery and the sub, the underbelly of humanity.

16:36 To see kids up to their shoulders And they don't have supports, rock bolts, ventilation shafts, anything like that. being buried alive. And they're down there trying to get that dollar or two because that's the And we need that loot. You know, in college, we all read Heart of Darkness, Conrad. drive those things far and fast. And the Congo happened to be sitting on one of the largest

21:40 That's what inspired Heart of Darkness. And as I said, I've not really been talking about it. of innocent impoverished children into shiny phones and cars. It seems like it would be a very dangerous thing for you to do because the consequences of this information getting out there. and so I took some time building ground relationships with people who could guide me safely get me into mining areas safely who I could put my life in their hands

25:58 But the ones that are most heavily guarded, the big mines, you know, back in their villages. Like everything else is expendable, but you don't want to get stuck in the Congo without, you know, your documents. We're in the middle of nowhere. Some of them are mineral traders. And by that I mean in the worst possible scenarios where I'm in a remote mine and there's some guys with Kalashnikovs and machetes coming after me,

29:57 I would maybe be a mineral trader or some investor or someone looking to help transport minerals. you land into a town called Lubumbashi, Documentation. And they each had babies on their backs as they were in this trench digging cobalt. it was me and my guide. And there's a pack of guys with Kalashnikovs, machetes running at us. And they operate, told them

33:45 commando's leader. That kind of calmed them down enough that they let us, you know, walk out of There are, you know, there's not much civil society in the Congo, but there is a small civil society there. You know, local activists, little NGOs, they have to be very careful in how they operate let alone take an interest and start listening. A, shine light in this heart of darkness, and then B, bring those voices out of the country to a broader world.

37:18 because I could be someone who was reckless, who was careless, That's right. You know, the big anxiety for everyone up the chain is the truth. down there. There have been some journalists who've gotten in there and there have been some stories written, especially around 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, those few years. Because the minute, you know, of Congo where these minerals come from, the trees have been clear cut, the rivers have

41:27 to just invest in treating those people with the same respect and dignity as the people in it's embedded in the framework and structure of a global economy that, again, it's about the loot and the money. for themselves what's happening there? I mean, why is it that I had to go? I'm not running a tech You go around in the villages, there's just, there's no electricity. I mean, we can go on

45:37 ignorance or is it a diffusion of responsibility because they came into this company when all this already existed? Yeah, interesting question. So some of it is, well, it's their responsibility. no, the Congolese government should worry about it. see what the bottom of their cobalt supply chain looks like. I will take them. I will take them. our world, at the bottom of that is slave labor and child labor.

48:53 know yeah that's right all of the above plus a callous disregard for their fellow human being Yeah, we are. when everyone has equal human rights. in a time where you can't legally own another person or exploit them like a slave any on any I mean, that's so insane. Like that we're capable of it. And the fact that a small handful of brave journalists are bringing this to light in light of so many problems that we know about in the world that get all of our attention in the news every day.

53:29 We shouldn't tolerate it. It always starts with shining light into that darkness and bringing ground truth out into the world. Right. And what else do we not know? What else do we not know? batteries, be it human rights or environmental sustainability. Do we know everything we need You know, it doesn't enter into the calculus. What are the other big problems out there? Because people will start looking and then suddenly the bottom end of much of the global economic order is revealed to be tainted with an array of problematic labor conditions from child labor to sweatshop labor to penny labor, to forced labor, labor abuse. Why is everything so cheap?

58:47 how do we bring down labor costs? under-regulated labor markets because they're cheaper. But it seems like we don't have the raw components. That's right. Everything they make has batteries. Yeah. the big elephant in this conversation, the biggest of them all. So what would happen if That's right. And they reap immense profits. Shareholder value. that same thing. And so, okay, we can pay people in America, you know, 25 bucks an hour plus benefits and a 401k and time off and all of this business.

1:04:07 You see, the blood for cobalt economy only exists because Apple, Samsung, Tesla, all the legacy car makers, all the tech companies, they have demand for cobalt. could think of that would somehow or another shift this is some sort of a technological innovation that allowed them to Gloves, hard hats, masks, goggles, whatever. things that would help solve a lot of the harms. And then you add in a few things like invest in

1:07:20 get past the PR department and the CSR team that would say, no, we're, you know, And then the question is, yeah, will they engage? Kalashnikovs guarding these secrets. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Their government, their companies, the way they do business is a big part of the problem. Fifteen are run by Chinese companies. At what point do they have to make decisions around their corporate moral record? You know, they know what's happening in China and with Chinese companies in other parts of the world.

1:11:45 I'll go the rest of the way. You know, yeah, they can't go running around militia mines. There's progress, for sure. For sure. Because even if it weren't coming out of a war-torn country maybe a little bit of thermal stability. Nothing's ready to replace cobalt entirely. And you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people. And mining has likely destroyed the environment.

1:15:57 fringes. And then as a consequence, there's almost nothing left to do but dig because it's also a way No, no, no, no. So like, you know, take out the big cities and it's like there's just no electricity. I mean, the list goes on and on and on of all this injury and suffering that's at the have like 10 grams, so a thousand times less. Can that be recycled? Can old EVs, can they extract

1:19:12 Oh, what's the first thing you think about? that addresses most of those. It may not be as, give you the same range. It may not give you as Most of the EVs have cobalt in the batteries. Even if some manufacturers use alternate formulations, it's not like cobalt is going to disappear. But it doesn't seem like there's any answer. No, quite right. And it comes down to increasing shareholder value and, you know, stock option value.

1:24:46 You still have that issue. They don't have a voice. Well, it's, yeah, it's voice, voice is everything. You know, millions more people listen to you than will likely read my book. I mean, there are faces that I see. For a parent to relive that day after day, that torture, you know, for technological innovation we have to keep getting the newest everything?

1:29:37 Did you get the newest one? when this information comes out, they're going to try to figure out how you got access. Yes. So I thought I have thought and Well, it seems like what was exposed just by watching the video that you took Who buys the ads on a lot of those major news channels? people did online school, especially in the first part of the pandemic during the lockdowns,

1:33:50 into the trenches and pits to keep the cobalt flowing. And they got sick and they got unwell That when you mentioned, well, why isn't it plastered all over mainstream media? We should be talking about it the same way years ago everyone was talking about sweatshops and Nike and, you know, that got a lot of attention and then blood diamonds and we all talked about

1:36:07 on top of the tragedy that it didn't have to be this way. And it doesn't have to be this way. average person is good in their heart, And there was this ideological tussle. The first human rights movement of the 20th century was shine light into the heart of darkness in the Congo. And they kept coming at it with truth and truth. us have this conversation will do so on a gadget that has cobalt in the battery. You know, so it

1:39:26 and hopefully this won't get amplified to the point where there's a public outrage. We find some other alternative, and then we won't have to deal with it. what do you believe to be the best case scenario for how it's received? the slave owners said okay yeah we've we've implemented some changes and He actually said this. Well, we've talked it out.

1:43:59 That's the thing, Joe. in the Congo. They sold it to a Chinese company in 2006 for $2.65 billion. And with that left I do fundamentally believe that just let's solve this problem. Let's accept the truth. Let's solve this problem. I am a humble Glencore is the only other behemoth down there. And two of the top five biggest battery manufacturers in the world are Chinese companies.

1:48:37 They signed a big deal with the Congolese government in 2009, And Freeport was there. And even if there was, would they be able to operate in a competitive environment, given the fact that they do have to abide by their shareholders and this philosophy of continuing to increase revenue every quarter? a congressional hearing on it. And the only reason

1:50:55 put cobalt in the battery. So they created the demand and they have to start with the solutions. It means the world that you invited me to come and talk about this. Thank you for everything.