Rebecca Lemov

Date: 2025-05-15 | Duration: 2h 45m

Episode Overview

Rebecca, a researcher who has spent over 25 years studying mind control, brainwashing, and hyper-persuasion, joins Joe to unpack the mechanisms by which individuals and institutions manipulate belief, behavior, and identity. She opens by explaining that the question of what drew her to this topic is one she's still asking herself — and that the answer has grown stranger and more complex over two decades of inquiry. They walk through the CIA's MKUltra and its UK equivalents (MI5 ran parallel programs), the academic psychology of hyper-persuasion, the instability of truth in an age of information saturation, and what distinguishes genuine persuasion from coercion. Rebecca also shares candid thoughts on audiobooks and the intimacy of hearing the author's own voice — wishing she'd read her own book. Her work appears in her book, Brainwashing, Mind Control and Hyper-Persuasion.

About Rebecca Lemov

Rebecca Lemov is a distinguished historian of science at Harvard University, renowned for her insightful exploration of data, technology, and the evolution of human and behavioral sciences. With a notable tenure as a visiting scholar at the Max Planck Institute, she has made significant contributions to the understanding of how scientific narratives shape societal perceptions. Her latest book, "The Instability of Truth: Brainwashing, Mind Control and Hyper-Persuasion," delves into the complexities of manipulation and belief in contemporary society, making her a compelling voice in discussions about truth and persuasion. With her unique blend of historical insight and contemporary relevance, Lemov offers an engaging perspective that challenges our understanding of knowledge and influence.

Key Moments

– 25 years studying mind control — why the question keeps growing
– CIA's MKUltra and MI5's parallel brainwashing programs
– Hyper-persuasion: what distinguishes it from normal influence
– The instability of truth in an information-saturated age
– Academic psychology of coercion and belief manipulation
– How institutions manufacture and maintain false consensus
0:00:00 – What got you interested in mind control? I've been asking that for 25 years
0:20:52 – Ad break — DoorDash and the persuasion of convenience
0:40:49 – Firefighter crisis and being whipped into a frenzy by media coverage
1:03:22 – CIA's MKUltra — and MI5 was doing the same thing in the UK
1:25:58 – War on peptides and cutting-edge medicine suppression
1:45:35 – RFK Jr. fired the gonorrhea tracker — DOGE and public health cuts
2:05:32 – Indiana Jones pulling the gun — the case for cutting through the noise
2:26:08 – El Salvador prison debate — Bukele's system
2:40:08 – Book: Brainwashing, Mind Control and Hyper-Persuasion — audio book regrets

Transcript Excerpt

Starting point is 00:00:00 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day! All right, hello, Rebecca. Very nice to meet you. Hi, Joe. Very nice to meet you too. So, first of all, what got you interested in mind control? Starting point is 00:00:25 Well, so this is a question I've been asking myself just because I find myself after two and a half decades of having this topic. That initially seemed pretty niche and unusual and not many people were interested or many people were skeptical about it, but I thought it seemed like it embodied some of the more extreme. If you could look at the way people are shaped by their environments and by their, you know, what parts of your life are determined by you and what parts are determined by outside forces, that mind control would be a perfect area to investigate that because it's so extreme, especially if you looked at particular cases. So I, because I had done my dissertation at UC Berkeley on Starting point is 00:01:10 the history of behavioral engineering and how, you know, these kind of models for creating a society of control and encouragement in various ways, like a behaviorist kind of dream and it seemed like the next step was to look at something like brainwashing or mind control. When you first started studying it was it a less public sort of curiosity because now a lot of people are very much interested I blame the internet mostly. I probably had a lot to do it too. You and the internet. A lot of people on the internet. Mostly. I probably had a lot to do with it too. But it's just- You and the internet. Starting point is 00:01:46 A lot of people on the internet are, you know, because over time, you know, people have gotten to know about MKUltra and a bunch of different programs that our own United States government was involved in where they were working on mind control. But what, like, initially, what drew you to it? Well, I guess I always have been dr...

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Who was the guest on Joe Rogan Experience #2322?

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On Joe Rogan Experience #2322 with Rebecca Lemov, topics include 25 years studying mind control — why the question keeps, CIA's MKUltra and MI5's parallel brainwashing programs, Hyper-persuasion: what distinguishes it from normal, and The instability of truth in an information-saturated age.

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