Joe Rogan Experience #578 — Peter McGraw Transcript

Transcript

0:00 We used to do commercials, but now we just add them in later. Peter McGraw. So your book, Humor Code, it's all about analyzing comedy and the art of comedy, where comedy comes from, where humor comes from. Except for Stephen King. He was on Animal House. Right. This is a confused fucking room. Leave this fucking disaster alone. It's terrifying that a guy like that can make it to like 70, whatever the hell he was, by doing it.

3:09 But here's the thing that is striking to me is like, why does he need to do something like... wait in the hall like by the hundreds he could do that i meanitutes and have them wait in the hall, like, by the hundreds, he could do that. It's awful. is a lot nicer and friendlier and warmer. No, never. and some of it is is that the act of being a funny person you often go down dark dark places

5:52 Amazing. philosophy when it came to comedy. People have like slept on Martinin lawrence and i don't I mean, And I used to go on after him no no you're gonna go on at 10 45 after you know a guy like damon wayans does 45 minutes and They'd clear the path and make the path towards the stage larger Okay. back and watched some of his stuff it's it's really interesting to go back and watch classic

9:38 And he's so likable in ways that... chris rock was raving about it chris rock was saying that he felt like an amateur after he saw And then all this shit comes out. And how much time does he have left on this planet? I mean, the next day it showed up online. weeks a couple times here and there but yeah he just said like go google it it's all over the

12:09 Okay. for 70 plus years i'm sure right now none of that matters to him i'm sure right now he is in hell charles manson is having a better week than bill cosby because manson got married that makes a lot of intuitive sense the challenge with that is that that's the same story that I have an answer to why people seem messed up who do comedy because most people don't get on stage right and tell the world about their

15:45 because there was a lot of other points of focus And I started fighting. you don't know and that turns into like an actual fight so every sparring session we would do because there's so much criticism and analysis and self-analysis and judgment by the audience And it's really weird that our society, that human beings rather, are like that. you know, I want you to come to this open mic night and critique the comedians.

19:21 at just for laughs and at a real comedy club in montreal in montreal oh failure and you have to absorb the pain it's a very weird thing but i find that the more satisfied emotions, our reasoning than positive things. And it's, it's part of the reason that that one little like objectively all right that was really good but actually there could i could go look at my

22:27 get it and nail it and and the audience is dying laughing and then people go that's my all-time And I worked with him before I did the postdoc when I was a graduate student. And then I'd be like, oh yeah, that's better. ernest hemingway has this great quote that my friend ari shafir has taped on the front of his laptop okay the first draft of everything is shit yeah

24:41 have to listen as long yeah and it's faster And you know what you're talking about already, Changing your voice is messed up, though. I wasn't that happy with it. just focus on the thing like you're someone in the audience you're just watching of the audience. I just wanted to just focus on the thing. Like, you're someone in the audience. You're just watching in the audience.

26:46 i'm stuck here for a little bit i'll fucking get back there those mountains you just can't beat a hub in ways that a place like boulder or denver can't be right you know there's just it's just so the scale is so much bigger and When you're flying into Mexico City, you're like, whoa, that's dark. everybody tries to be more courteous this is why it's about to change

28:49 this way and jammed up that way there's red green it doesn't matter the light turns green you move Very friendly. It's, like, consistently nice. was a state it'd be like the 13th largest state or something like that just la county just la county there's a lot of people like that you meet yeah i think a lot of them are in in in the show business that's Yoshi bro

30:58 he thinks I want to do do you know what? Probably. and she was giving him a blowjob upside down he just was like inches away having people always want us to you should you know the media is like where do you have any lab coats any Oh, okay. being such a great room. One of the things that we do in the humor code is investigate what makes funny in a comedy club like why what helps make a joke land what what did you come what were your

34:38 or what we say is it says oh this is a benign violation and when other people are laughing I guess I left the keys at home. duchene unfortunate word to use couldn't you come up with another type of word is that how it's All right. You just got red band. Just trying to be nice. because they're just surrounded in laughter right that makes sense um so one of the things is having

37:24 Well, most of the time, those things aren't funny. You won't hold back laughter because you're like, oh, I don't want to be the person who laughs at that kind of a joke and so it has this disinhibiting effect uh some of the other things are like you So jamming people up together all these people together laughter bouncing back down on people you've got the darkness and then the last thing show you've got the laughter bouncing back down on people you've got the

39:40 if they don't have bricks they bring bricks in i think it's the red more than the brick although Yeah. I mean, it's real bricks, but it's not all brick construction. And one thing that I didn't even consider was the uncomfortable factor. Yes. It doesn't happen in comedy clubs that much, but it happens like late night television. into consideration i don't know if you did um is that part of comedy part of what's going on

41:56 allowing themselves to be taken away like this like when you have low ceilings the parameters It's less comforting. and I haven't heard back from them yet. things these are people who already love that comedian and they're going to see them a little She fosters it. they've uh there's like a three-man crew they do uh they do their own show but they always are

44:51 Sam Kinison started. And it was because they were looking for that kind of comedy. and then um we actually went to tanzania You know, it's like, it's such an interesting. These places like the improv, I do a lot of the improvs, but they don't do open mic nights. People, like, really get involved in, like, someone who's, like, major cities you can identify who is the best and then they use that city as a leaping off point for

48:59 of the way you need to be around them hanging out you need to be around them going on stage we feed circumstances but i think you should get a general proficiency in a place where you can get some Okay. Sort of, you know, you can get that sort of you know comedians that has uh this undeniably inspirational effect yeah i understand i mean i'm i'm interested we were sort

52:00 i think that's that's essential as well i think touring is uh another essential um i see and that's exactly what it is it's better understand the world yeah right and so so when you're 22 years old you can be a funny person Yeah, and it's, you know, it's fun comedy, but it's not going to go very far if you're interested in going far. just doing it in brooklyn in some hipster spot yeah you know what i mean like by saying boston

55:29 I think you're going to get a very limited perspective. You know, I mean, you know, fart jokes aren't artistic. I'm doing that with poop right now. stage with a mic and a fedora. It's from, you know, our own interactions with our friends and our it's every single night for 30 nights and so whoa um yeah and so like we hung out with these folks or you need to find it broadcast from Egypt or from Jordan,

58:28 the egyptians are hilarious they're very funny yes what do you attribute that to And so we found this weird reversal where the Palestinians were much more sort of self-deprecating, and their comedy was much more Jewish in the American sense than you would have necessarily expected. They all have mandatory military service. But those folks have been replaced by other minorities.

1:01:05 one of the brilliant things about Chris Rock is his crossover appeal. well they fit that model very nicely in a number of different dimensions. Right. So like culturally, religiously and, you know, and so on, um, ethnically and so on. And so, and then, and now you also have mentors, right? So, um, so if you, if you're like looking for someone to look up to, you can find someone

1:02:38 talking like you're talking about mexico city in mexico city that's just the way the traffic is you could drive anywhere. So we went to Denmark, and it's the easiest driving in the world. they feel like they're operating and like with um anonymity because they've come from probably me because european please don't say it like that it's complimentary european jews are so um

1:05:25 before all of his troubles was known as a very intelligent guy you know very introspective and smart people tend to be more creative and smart people tend to be better at that kind of thing ari it's a shit joke and it's a fucking hilarious bit and his manager's like look man you gotta of relevance especially where they would start preaching on stage and it's gross like they would

1:08:08 Women shouldn't be slaves. right i see and then you can have people like me on yeah we can have people that are way less funny It's a conversation. to only that little narrow gap of humor. We're human. i've ever saw in my life because he was he was totally non-related he's like i'm sorry i got There's this girl who does stand up, and one of her big bits is she makes air come out of her vaginal cavity

1:10:38 of her set, so she's all sweaty, and so Oh, you're friends. A little one quickie. That's not funny... That's you open? It still smells. Yeah. A little one quickie. Sometimes it's not good, like right there. And I think that there's been a lot of like bad comedy on almost every subject. Right. And I'm like, no, I don't. They'll be – like, especially, like, bands.

1:13:48 And now there's, like, some kid in Kansas City who never would have found you, you know, comedy there's alt comedy scenes all over the country now yeah where you could you know you Well, at the Comedy Store, you'll deal with like 10 comics in a night. They're all sort of the same dude. And it's like, it was some of the worst music you'll ever hear in your life.

1:16:42 and that johnny cash and you listen to some of this, like, really obvious formulaic sort of created shit. do the show we're fine but if we do the show and we show a video right and the video is like like a snake eating a crocodile or something like that somebody owns It's glorious. They drove down old dirt roads. but if every bro tactic failed they would just call their girl girl

1:21:37 You know, Honey Honey's obviously not pop music. it's just different versions of it all well there's a market you know especially when you're Don't do anything so obvious. But the first step is you just figure out what works. like one of my all-time favorite comedians. but he never had like there was no philosophy behind his comedy it was just uh it was just really hilarious one-liners

1:23:57 Yeah, I've known, I knew him for a long time. And it led to the Mitch Hedberg that everybody knows now. An hour later, I was still worried. Like if you go and look at through his body of work, there's no like bad stuff. I mean, he died, I think, in 2000. stories about him in the early days where club owners didn't quite get it like when you go on and doing impressions of musicians,

1:26:36 And obviously you're talking about a guy who I think is one of the best ever. or how they develop, you know, a sense of humor, the ability to produce laughs in others. shows that there's a lot of contextual factors that are at play I mean, if, if Metallica went on stage and did you know a concert in front of a like, just a regular audience. sleeves up and i wore like a wacky t-shirt and i had like a pin on my jacket like i was trying to

1:30:08 right and the key is just to make sure that the the arrow is pointed to the positive side right people in the room so it was like a 300 seat room 250 people leave the 50 people that are remaining the theory is it explains the two ways that a humor attempt can fail so you're trying to find Unsavory. And ideally what you do, what Hicks did was find the people who he hits the sweet spot with.

1:33:35 A big part of what comedy is, is here's the world through my eyes. And some people would listen to that country music thing, and they would love each one albums how many people know that music and it's it's incredible it's like you're dealing with a Yeah. like he represented racism or homophobia or whatever it was his And he's using his character to expose the worst aspects of Southern life

1:36:42 to one of his shows it's not just indian folks you're like sure a lot of his asian folks you know folks from india and all sorts of people all sorts of different ethnicities but he definitely found a market the in the humor and kind of roughhouse these rats. So he'll move his hand around the cage, You're just a rat-tickling hand as a comic. so these are ultrasonic so we can't hear them with the human ear and what they find they do

1:40:10 the rats right so their brain chemistry and and so on so there's these these guys at northwestern you can feed rats and you can do other things to create positive emotional states. this state this rat is oh it's very simple like it's just it's just I like this right but couldn't So not all tickling, for instance, induces laughter. You have this sweet spot with play fighting.

1:43:45 few you know tiny a few different ways in rats but in humans it could be you know slapstick it could you know for a long time i what i believe science can provide comedy is it can cut the learning curve. points out what's wrong with them. that's wrong and finds a clever way to make it okay. Or am I taking a situation that everybody sees as okay and I have to find a way to show them how it's also wrong?

1:46:42 helps the people is to be aware of the mechanisms that lead you to go off the rails and go on a gambling binge or a But most writers, Yeah. the movie yes the real patch the real patch adams i didn't even know he existed i thought that was just a construct no no he's a real man really yeah and he's like a big man he's like six six Yeah. Whatever you do, don't.

1:49:37 and we like people who can make jokes in the face of tragedy, And what The Onion did, which was so brilliant, was instead of doing this sort of too-soon comedy fail and making fun of the victims and making fun of the tragedy they turned it on to the terrorist they made fun of the so what the onion did was like a great, you're making you're making them seem less serious yeah i mean that's the classic scene

1:52:32 So there's a long history of ridicule, for instance. again you sort of find this uh you find this idea like so um thomas hobbes in leviathan They, kinds of things that we were talking about earlier where you're bringing everyone together Yes. what he's essentially saying is you need something wrong. We're always struggling to try to achieve this state of enlightenment and just emptiness and being free of all of our negativity.

1:56:14 They always wind up losing it, And you take away the conflict, and then you take away the source of jokes. even today, are going to put someone down you put down the high status person here's the problem with that Send him people that are going to go all the way over there and go, hey, we just drove That's sand. be grabbing them and making them eat dirt yes okay this is a joke and it's wrong and it's awful but it's amazing it's amazing because it's wrong and awful and the

1:59:48 All right. were designed to make Muslims in Denmark feel not welcome, From cartoons. people over them well yeah that's true but um but that's not what you think that's not the full The United States. just put it up there to fuck with them. idea was it was it was sort of a kind of like freedom of speech uh-huh editorial was it like right? the old cannonball bomb coming out of the turbine kind of thing that's that's the really the one

2:03:37 Well, actually, that's not true. that folks took these cartoons to Syria and so on, But what happened very, very quickly was the Swedish government apologized. And a lot of people saw this stuff who would never normally have seen it and, and so on. Or is it insulting that they're bothering to critique your ideology at all or mock your ideology at all?

2:06:18 Right. I mean, like the way they treat women, the women's rights to vote and drive, the stoning for adultery, all the across-the-board things that are a part of Islam. I mean, you know, and so regardless of what you might think of Islam in general, I think Not in Denmark. Like, Islamophobia is a very strange thing that has, like, recently joined our vernacular.

2:09:19 know i mean he was a christian or at least started out as a Christian. Nobody accused him of Christianophobia, or it wasn't thought of as an affront to a minority group. you're saying that comedy is offensive no no, no, no, no, no. this audience That these cartoons should have had their, you know, 15 minutes of fame in Denmark. to make the victim and who they want to make fun of and all that kind of stuff i mean that's that's up to the to the artist right but

2:12:25 in this in this particular situation because they're shit stirrers they got a hold of they in terms of like hedge your words and you like tread lightly on so you mean you you dance the the dance of a like if that created that that's good that's like mocking the ridiculousness of this civilization He does this with Jews. Probably not do it again. There's been more than one attack and that's look whenever a religion

2:16:50 for mocking christianity but if you mock now islam yeah i mean how many times has people okay i'm not you know what i'm saying i understand your point i really do yeah i do it's just i the when it divides people, i i use in terms of trying to measure goodness so to speak but that you know i that idea could punching up you will call it punching oh i see but what you're doing

2:20:16 Then the Islamophobe idea, like the criticizing of Islam, What you're, so, I understand what you're saying. failing i'm almost forced but this is not what we're doing right right but look there's a lot fundamental problem with that because they think that it's killing a life right and to pretend conform with their very rigid tribal ideology the tribe of progressives yeah i agree when the tribe

2:23:10 that it that it's that it's ignorant and to to go after it with vile i mean vile and and and at some point like so in this abortion one i think you and i can agree whatever our own personal If you want to talk to someone about climate change, there's so many variables when it comes to climate change that are absolutely incredibly fascinating. We're gross in a lot of ways.

2:25:21 they start espousing these ideas? And I say very little. He's a crazy... The lake effect stuff. were much better about getting their ideas out there they could actually um so because you know Yeah. And that's very intangible. So in some cases, that's error, right? that's a lot harder because you can't randomly assign someone try to avoid individual differences as much as possible because you're now you're not manipulating

2:30:07 Right. Measuring it. um comedy enhancing tools that exist in the world right so they they do an improv group they do a if the goal is to create someone who is more funny now than they were before then i say well maybe service agents i don't think it's gonna i I think they would have to be super focused on it. would uh be open-minded like a lot of comics are very protective of the creative process and

2:33:30 A show? So I'll tell you one of the, It's just a ranking system. And other people are like, and that's the way it'll be. I did not expect that. Men are very clueless about how other people see them. Yeah. all but who is like maybe a manager or somewhere and he tries cracking jokes around a female Do you try to actively work on your flaws? So, yeah, we do this.

2:38:04 other one so we call that wyla for short and then we have wola what others laughed at and why and what we're doing with this study is to see is one better than the other at getting people to But not even what others laugh at, but how others perceive you. Because, again, it's like who's the messenger sort of yeah um but not even what others laugh at but how others perceive you because it's

2:39:19 why is it that, and you're going to go, I want to know what he thinks about this subject. because it almost fits the the definition of a benign violation. Like you're And then this other one, They don't really think about Because it's not going to happen overnight. They take weeks and months to do. You know, especially like Eagle blinders, you did good when you ate shit yeah no you'll never oh yeah there's research on this yeah they

2:43:32 joke because they think i'm talking about somebody else because you don't realize you're dumb because is when do you get to the flat part of the curve? Most people, they're not patient enough to get to the flat part of the curve. stand-up that a lot of people find is that there's only one way to get the jokes better you have to computer yeah i agree it's a weird art form and that it requires other people's points of view

2:45:53 You know, I think this is a fascinating subject, man. They can buy it. Or can they? and let everybody know. That'd be great.